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SSlater · 07-16-2015, 09:27 PM

I am aware that I said I would back-off posting, for awhile, well, I found this and it is important.
This is from Tidwell's "April 65" Pg. 172.
" The interpretation of Harney's mission originally was based on the premise that such an unusual operation, involving Mosby and Harney, would only be at a target of the most importance and at that junction of the war, the White House appeared to be the most important target - supported by Atzerodt's statement."
Was Tidwell guessing at Harney's mission? (It could have been the Capitol, etc.)
Another oddity. Gen. Lee's last order to Mosby, was to move his Command further South, yet Mosby stayed at Upperville to assist Harney. Who overruled Lee? (This is not normal for Mosby.)
I doubt that I can resolve this entanglement.

RJNorton · 07-17-2015, 04:10 AM

John, I came across this video about the Harney mission:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na6ntmIh6mM

SSlater · 07-17-2015, 02:02 PM

Thanks Roger. That also provided a chance to "visit" with Jane and David. But as usual - the information was "constructed". In plain English - it was wrong. 1. Harney and Summers never made it to the Potomac (and that flimsy footbridge). 2 Four people were captured. not just two. (I'm hunting for the names of the other two.)
I'm accumulating more info every day, some good, some so-so. I didn't know that Harney was incarcerated in Alexandria jail first, then transferred to Old Capitol.
PS. Dynamite was not invented until 1867, so they had to rely on Gun Powder. Gun Powder burns slowly in the open. It has to be "Contained" to explode. so, a keg of gunpowder is not much power.
Compare blowing up the White House to the "Crater". That took TONS of gun powder. These guys could never have snuck in and lite a bomb - that would destroy the White House. They had something else in mind but WHAT? There is a story here, but we don't know it.

John Fazio · 07-21-2015, 09:56 PM

SSlater, Roger, Jerry, Gene, Herb, Jane, Laurie, et al.:

I have very little to add to this thread. To paraphrase Will Rogers: All I know about Thomas Frank Harney is what I read in other people's works (Jane; Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy; Steers; Crawford). I will, however, add two comments which address comments made above by Roger and SSlater, namely their suggestions that the failure of the Harney mission may have been the trigger to make Booth move, i.e. that Harney's capture convinced Booth to carry out the assassination. What I have to say will also address Steers's comment that the failure convinced Booth that capturing no longer had strategic purpose.

in my opinion, Harney's failure did precipitate Booth's action, but not because he was convinced of anything, but because he was under orders from Richmond to execute a contingency plan to assassinate if Harney failed. There are at least two items that support this theory: 1) The fact that Booth made plans not to assassinate just Lincoln, but to decapitate the government, i.e. Lincoln, Seward, Johnson, Stanton and Grant, at least, which, if successful, would have approximated the intended result of Harney's mission; and 2) The fact that Booth communicated with Surratt when the latter was in Montreal, telling him that their plans had changed and that he was to return to Washington forthwith. This communication is attested to by McMillan in the trial of Surratt in 1867 and is mentioned in several sources, including Weichmann. Asked by McMillan what he did in response to the communication, Surratt said he left Montreal immediately. This would have been about April 11 or 12.

Further, it is also my opinion, as many of you know, that Steers (an otherwise very astute observer whose works have contributed greatly to the literature) and most assassination historians are mistaken in their belief that Booth's plan was, and had been for perhaps the previous nine months, to "capture" Lincoln and take him to Richmond, there to be held as ransom pending the release of Confederate POW's. My opinion, rather, is that Booth never intended to kidnap anyone and that kidnapping was always a ruse to cover his more sinister purpose of multiple assassinations. In my judgment, the evidence for this conclusion is clear and convincing, very strong to overwhelming, and I hope to one day have the opportunity to present it our little community.

John

HerbS · 07-22-2015, 06:47 AM

John,your opinion is always valued by me!

John Fazio · 07-22-2015, 07:11 AM

(07-22-2015 06:47 AM)HerbS Wrote: John,your opinion is always valued by me!

Herb:

Thanks, as always. And let me add that yours are equally valued by me.

John

L Verge · 07-22-2015, 12:01 PM

This will amaze certain people on this forum, John, but I do agree with your first paragraph regarding the link between Harney and Booth. As to the second theory, I'm still waiting for something else more conclusive before I fall into line.

As for sharing your thoughts to a larger group, I would invite readers to attend the Surratt conference in April of 2016, when you will be talking on this.

John Fazio · 07-22-2015, 03:13 PM

(07-22-2015 12:01 PM)L Verge Wrote: This will amaze certain people on this forum, John, but I do agree with your first paragraph regarding the link between Harney and Booth. As to the second theory, I'm still waiting for something else more conclusive before I fall into line.

As for sharing your thoughts to a larger group, I would invite readers to attend the Surratt conference in April of 2016, when you will be talking on this.

Laurie:

Thank you for the great honor. I will look forward to it and to seeing everyone again.

John

SSlater · 07-22-2015, 04:41 PM

To all that Post here. I am not contesting your opinions. (More Opinions - More Ideas.) so, that allows me an opinion.
Back when Booth, Conrad, and others, were looking for Lincoln along the dark pathways between the White House and the Soldier's Home, they were trying to "grab" Lincoln - alive and unhurt. Obviously, those plans did not consider "DECAPITATING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT."
The Confederacy needed "SOLDIERS" - lots of them - desperately - immediately. This led to several plans to "Free the Rebel Prisoners". Some think that this was the reason that Gen. E. G. Lee was sent to Canada. He was to lead an Army of freed prisoners, that would free other prisoners, who then would fight their way southward and squeeze Grant between them and Gen R. E. Lee.
I read books by the authors from that time period, and consider exactly what they wrote, they said KIDNAP. I don't say that the plans could not be changed, as the fighting worsened, but I will never buy into recent thoughts that KIDNAPPING WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION.
I may be alone in my thoughts, but...... Now back to finding Harney.

L Verge · 07-22-2015, 06:48 PM

(07-22-2015 04:41 PM)SSlater Wrote: To all that Post here. I am not contesting your opinions. (More Opinions - More Ideas.) so, that allows me an opinion.
Back when Booth, Conrad, and others, were looking for Lincoln along the dark pathways between the White House and the Soldier's Home, they were trying to "grab" Lincoln - alive and unhurt. Obviously, those plans did not consider "DECAPITATING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT."
The Confederacy needed "SOLDIERS" - lots of them - desperately - immediately. This led to several plans to "Free the Rebel Prisoners". Some think that this was the reason that Gen. E. G. Lee was sent to Canada. He was to lead an Army of freed prisoners, that would free other prisoners, who then would fight their way southward and squeeze Grant between them and Gen R. E. Lee.
I read books by the authors from that time period, and consider exactly what they wrote, they said KIDNAP. I don't say that the plans could not be changed, as the fighting worsened, but I will never buy into recent thoughts that KIDNAPPING WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION.
I may be alone in my thoughts, but...... Now back to finding Harney.

Trust me, John, you are not alone in continuing to think that kidnapping was still an option. I have even suggested that arranging for freeing the prisoners at Elmira was part of Surratt's assignment in order to get them into Canada, rehabbed, and ready to continue the Northwest Conspiracy.

Jefferson Davis was technically still the head of the Confederacy, and we know that he wanted to continue the war via guerrilla tactics. Rehabbed prisoners already knew warfare, and Confederate gold that made it into Canada could pay for lots of things in continuing the war on a different homefront -- this one bringing the fight into Union territory (and in an area known for Copperhead support).

HerbS · 07-23-2015, 07:15 AM

The director of the Ontario County Historical Society[Canandaigua,NY] told me that the govt took the ledger from the hotel that John Surratt stayed in at Canandaigua,NY after the Lincoln Assassination!So that might explain why we can't prove his stay in Elmira and Canandaigua,NY!

Wild Bill · 07-23-2015, 07:51 AM

You are not alone SSlater (John Stanton)

RJNorton · 07-23-2015, 08:15 AM

(07-23-2015 07:15 AM)HerbS Wrote: The director of the Ontario County Historical Society[Canandaigua,NY] told me that the govt took the ledger from the hotel that John Surratt stayed in at Canandaigua,NY after the Lincoln Assassination!So that might explain why we can't prove his stay in Elmira and Canandaigua,NY!

Hi Herb. In the new book on John Surratt author Michael Schein writes as follows:

"Nonetheless, it is physically possible that John H. Surratt paraded around Elmira attracting attention in his Garibaldi jacket precisely to manufacture an alibi, and then made it to Washington in time for all the witnesses who claimed to have seen him there on the day of the assassination to be both accurate and truthful."

I agree that if Surratt were in Elmira on the 14th it could have been the government which took the ledger pages from the Brainard House.

I have wavered back and forth on Surratt's whereabouts on the 14th and still cannot make up my mind on what I think.

John Fazio · (This post was last modified: 07-23-2015 09:41 AM by John Fazio.)

(07-23-2015 07:15 AM)HerbS Wrote: The director of the Ontario County Historical Society[Canandaigua,NY] told me that the govt took the ledger from the hotel that John Surratt stayed in at Canandaigua,NY after the Lincoln Assassination!So that might explain why we can't prove his stay in Elmira and Canandaigua,NY!

Herb:

This came out at the trial of Surratt. The government, of course, denied any wrongdoing. Surratt's whereabouts on April 14 remain an enduring mystery.

John

(07-22-2015 04:41 PM)SSlater Wrote: To all that Post here. I am not contesting your opinions. (More Opinions - More Ideas.) so, that allows me an opinion.
Back when Booth, Conrad, and others, were looking for Lincoln along the dark pathways between the White House and the Soldier's Home, they were trying to "grab" Lincoln - alive and unhurt. Obviously, those plans did not consider "DECAPITATING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT."
The Confederacy needed "SOLDIERS" - lots of them - desperately - immediately. This led to several plans to "Free the Rebel Prisoners". Some think that this was the reason that Gen. E. G. Lee was sent to Canada. He was to lead an Army of freed prisoners, that would free other prisoners, who then would fight their way southward and squeeze Grant between them and Gen R. E. Lee.
I read books by the authors from that time period, and consider exactly what they wrote, they said KIDNAP. I don't say that the plans could not be changed, as the fighting worsened, but I will never buy into recent thoughts that KIDNAPPING WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION.
I may be alone in my thoughts, but...... Now back to finding Harney.

John:

"...I will never buy into..." Never say never.

John

L Verge · 07-23-2015, 11:06 AM

(07-23-2015 08:15 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(07-23-2015 07:15 AM)HerbS Wrote: The director of the Ontario County Historical Society[Canandaigua,NY] told me that the govt took the ledger from the hotel that John Surratt stayed in at Canandaigua,NY after the Lincoln Assassination!So that might explain why we can't prove his stay in Elmira and Canandaigua,NY!

Hi Herb. In the new book on John Surratt author Michael Schein writes as follows:

"Nonetheless, it is physically possible that John H. Surratt paraded around Elmira attracting attention in his Garibaldi jacket precisely to manufacture an alibi, and then made it to Washington in time for all the witnesses who claimed to have seen him there on the day of the assassination to be both accurate and truthful."

I agree that if Surratt were in Elmira on the 14th it could have been the government which took the ledger pages from the Brainard House.

I have wavered back and forth on Surratt's whereabouts on the 14th and still cannot make up my mind on what I think.

While I am enjoying Mr. Schein's book, I still have memories of Mr. Hall and Gen. Tidwell researching train schedules back and forth for a conceivable way to get Surratt back to D.C. in 24 hours without success.