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loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 10-10-2014 03:17 PM by loetar44.)

Just found in the “Oneida NY Free Press 1880-1886” on page 1321 Gen. Grants OWN account about why they left Washington in such a hurry. It was not because of Mary Lincoln (!) and the decision to leave for Burlington came from Julia Grant while Grant was with Lincoln (!)…… Grant also speaks about the anonymous letter he received from a man who said he had been detailed to kill him. However, he also says: “but how true the letter was I cannot say”. The article “The End of Life” was an large article re. the death of Grant.

STS Lincolnite · 10-10-2014, 06:45 PM

The account in this article is consistent with what Mrs. Grant wrote in her memoirs.

The first sentence of the article says: "The darkest day of my life," Gen. Grant once told to a friend [emphasis added] "was the day I heard of Lincoln's assassination..."

So who is actually reporting this to the author of the article? Grant or his unidentified friend? Based on the structure of the article, it sounds to me like the author is relaying the words of the "friend". Not that that necessarily negatively impacts the veracity of the account.

loetar44 · 10-11-2014, 04:30 AM

(10-10-2014 06:45 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: So who is actually reporting this to the author of the article? Grant or his unidentified friend? Based on the structure of the article, it sounds to me like the author is relaying the words of the "friend". Not that that necessarily negatively impacts the veracity of the account.

Grant once said to an aide, "Ah, you know my weaknesses, my children and my horses." Is it then safe to say that his family was one of the most important things in his life? Can you than make the conclusion that Grant’s relationship with his wife was a devoted and happy one and that he loved his children?

Julia Grant began her memoirs by dictating to her son Frederick and later to a secretary The memoirs were then edited by John Y Simon. Does that make the memoirs less reliable?

HerbS · 10-11-2014, 05:55 AM

Things and statements do change over time.I think that we are on to something big.

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 10-11-2014 09:44 AM by loetar44.)

I now know who was the "unidentified friend", who wrote about why Grant left Washington. It was journalist John Russell Young, the seventh Librarian of Congress (did not serve long in that office: from his confirmation by the Senate on July 1, 1897 until his death on January 17, 1899).

After Grant left office, he urged Young to accompany him on a well-publicized trip around the world. Young agreed, and the result was the two-volume compilation, "Around the World with General Grant" (1879). "Around the World with General Grant" is a narrative of the visit of Grant to various Countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in 1877, 1878, 1879. Added are certain conversations with Grant on questions connected with American politics and history. It's Young's work, not Grant's.

The story which was verbatim printed in Grant's obit came from "Around the World with General Grant", part II, p. 356 / 357:

In a review Brooks D. Simpson (author of Ulysses S. Grant: Triumph over Adversity) says: "the former president sought to set the record straight on a number of matters in interviews with John Russell Young ..."

STS Lincolnite · 10-11-2014, 08:32 AM

(10-11-2014 04:30 AM)loetar44 Wrote:
(10-10-2014 06:45 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: So who is actually reporting this to the author of the article? Grant or his unidentified friend? Based on the structure of the article, it sounds to me like the author is relaying the words of the "friend". Not that that necessarily negatively impacts the veracity of the account.

Grant once said to an aide, "Ah, you know my weaknesses, my children and my horses." Is it then safe to say that his family was one of the most important things in his life? Can you than make the conclusion that Grant’s relationship with his wife was a devoted and happy one and that he loved his children?

Julia Grant began her memoirs by dictating to her son Frederick and later to a secretary The memoirs were then edited by John Y Simon. Does that make the memoirs less reliable?

For some reason, you seem to think that I am attacking the credibility of this article/source. That is not at all the case. As I previously stated, the account is corroborated by and matches up with Mrs. Grant's memoirs and that whether the person who is speaking to the reporter is Grant or his "friend" does not necessarily impact its veracity.

The point of my question was that when categorizing sources, I try to be precise about such things. I categorize as primary or secondary sources then subcategorize based on other criteria. It helps me organize, assign hierarchy and defend should it be necessary when writing or speaking.

Your identification of the "unidentified friend" in a later post is very helpful and appreciated.

HerbS · 10-11-2014, 09:17 AM

Loetar44-Outstanding job of research!-Herb

RJNorton · 10-11-2014, 09:27 AM

(10-08-2014 09:07 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: According to Grant, in his memoirs (p. 750 in my copy) - "I replied to the President's verbal invitation to the effect, that if we were in the city we would take great pleasure in accompanying them; but that I was very anxious to get away and visit my children, and if I could get through my work during the day I should do so. I did get through the work and started by the evening train on the 14th, sending Mr. Lincoln word, of course, that I would not be at the theatre."

He makes no mention whatsoever about his wife prodding him to leave. Grant implies that it was his wish to see his children that prompted him to want to leave on the 14th and that that was the case from the time Lincoln had invited him to the theatre. If his work was not completed and he had to stay in Washington, he would go to the theatre. If his work was completed he would leave by the first available train to get home and visit his children.

This doesn't answer the question as to why he took the local train versus a later express but I could imagine there could be any great number of reasons. Even though the local train ride was longer, wouldn't it have still arrived home at an earlier time? A mother or father anxious to see their children would I am sure endure a longer train ride if it meant an hour or two extra with their children.

Now to Mrs. Grant. I re-read the applicable pages in Mrs. Grant's memoir. Though she does not say why, she states that as soon as the General awoke on the morning of the 14th she "...asked him earnestly if we would not leave for Burlington today." She goes on to give an account of a messenger who arrived from Mrs. Lincoln - she states that looking back she firmly believed he was one of the conspirators and not from Mrs. Lincoln at all. Following this incident she says she again asked (via note) the General to leave that evening and also asked 3 of the staff officers to "urge the General to go home that night." She recounts seeing Booth and brunch at a nearby table with three other men (one of whom she is sure was the "messenger" from earlier in the morning) watching her and her party. She states that she told a Mrs. Rawlins with whom she was dining, "I believe that they are part of Mosby's guerillas and they have been listening to every word we have said. Do you know, I believe there will be an outbreak tonight or soon. I just feel it, and am glad I am going away tonight." Also talks of Booth riding up next to their carriage and looking in (this incident seems to be consistent with one of John Mathews' statements) in what was a very aggressive and menacing way.

Taken in totality, it seems to me that the wishes of Julia Grant were the paramount reason for the trip home on the evening of the 14th. Why she was so adamant - I'm not really sure. Though she may not have particularly cared for Mary Lincoln, I don't think Mrs. Lincoln was the main reason she was so adamant about leaving that night. It could have been a dream (though she never mentions one in her memoirs) but I have little doubt that she somehow felt that she and her husband were in some sort of danger. Maybe it was "intuition". Malcolm Gladwell in his book Blink describes the unconscious way some people are able to assimilate information and draw a conclusion (often correct) without even knowing how they do it - an explanation for what many call intuition. However she came to the conclusion, she was certainly right about the "outbreak tonight or soon."

I'll mention Linda's research again (from Burlingame):

"The previous evening, Lincoln had been too sick with a headache to take a carriage ride with his wife, who wished to see the brilliant illuminations celebrating Lee’s surrender. Grant, at Lincoln’s request, had agreed to accompany her. As she and the general entered their carriage, the crowd that had gathered outside the White House shouted “Grant!” nine times. Taking offense, Mrs. Lincoln instructed the driver to let her out, but she changed her mind when the crowd also cheered for the president. This happened again and again as the carriage proceeded around town. The First Lady evidently thought it inappropriate that Grant should be cheered before her husband was."

My question is whether or not Grant, himself, might also have taken a dislike of Mary Lincoln. Could he have been offended by her initial request of the driver to let her out?

Many of the posts seem to point mainly at Julia as the reason the Grants abruptly departed on the 14th after (apparently) initially indicating they would be staying several days at the Willard Hotel. But perhaps Ulysses himself was also looking for an excuse to (quoting Herb) "get out of Dodge." (and avoid spending another evening with Mary)

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 10-11-2014 09:39 AM by loetar44.)

(10-11-2014 08:32 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: For some reason, you seem to think that I am attacking the credibility of this article/source. That is not at all the case. As I previously stated, the account is corroborated by and matches up with Mrs. Grant's memoirs and that whether the person who is speaking to the reporter is Grant or his "friend" does not necessarily impact its veracity.

The point of my question was that when categorizing sources, I try to be precise about such things. I categorize as primary or secondary sources then subcategorize based on other criteria. It helps me organize, assign hierarchy and defend should it be necessary when writing or speaking.

Your identification of the "unidentified friend" in a later post is very helpful and appreciated.

Diaries I categorize as primary sources, being a direct or firsthand document written / created by the person which is studied.

An interview I also want to see as a primary source, because it also gives direct or firsthand information.

So Julia Grant’s diary is for me a primary source, as is the interview Young had with Gen. Grant. My example about Grant as a loving father and husband is an interpretation, because it analyses the words of Grant. So that’s secondary. It was my intention to make that clear.

(10-11-2014 09:17 AM)HerbS Wrote: Loetar44-Outstanding job of research!-Herb

Thank you Herb! And please call me Kees (pronounce "Case")

(10-11-2014 09:27 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many of the posts seem to point mainly at Julia as the reason the Grants abruptly departed on the 14th after (apparently) initially indicating they would be staying several days at the Willard Hotel. But perhaps Ulysses himself was also looking for an excuse to (quoting Herb) "get out of Dodge." (and avoid spending another evening with Mary)

You maybe right Roger, but Grant does not say that in the interview with Young. If he really wanted to set the record straight on a number of matters it is of course even in 1879 still "not done" to say that you wanted to leave DC because of the First Lady.

STS Lincolnite · 10-11-2014, 10:08 AM

(10-11-2014 09:27 AM)RJNorton Wrote: I'll mention Linda's research again (from Burlingame):

"The previous evening, Lincoln had been too sick with a headache to take a carriage ride with his wife, who wished to see the brilliant illuminations celebrating Lee’s surrender. Grant, at Lincoln’s request, had agreed to accompany her. As she and the general entered their carriage, the crowd that had gathered outside the White House shouted “Grant!” nine times. Taking offense, Mrs. Lincoln instructed the driver to let her out, but she changed her mind when the crowd also cheered for the president. This happened again and again as the carriage proceeded around town. The First Lady evidently thought it inappropriate that Grant should be cheered before her husband was."

My question is whether or not Grant, himself, might also have taken a dislike of Mary Lincoln. Could he have been offended by her initial request of the driver to let her out?

Many of the posts seem to point mainly at Julia as the reason the Grants abruptly departed on the 14th after (apparently) initially indicating they would be staying several days at the Willard Hotel. But perhaps Ulysses himself was also looking for an excuse to (quoting Herb) "get out of Dodge." (and avoid spending another evening with Mary)

Undoubtedly there were a multitude of reasons for the Grants leaving Washington on the evening of April 14th. Which one was the tipping point, final straw or just a convenient excuse is hard to say.

Related to the account of Grant and MTL's carriage ride: Burlingame gives no direct source for this. Unless it is also meant to be sourced by the Hamilton Fish diary (which I have never seen entries for) as is Mrs. Grant's statement about not wanting to go to theatre with MTL. But that sourcing doesn't seem to line up with the text in that section of Burlingame's narrative. Are there any other accounts that corroborate MTL's behavior that night? Based on other recorded events, it certainly seems like something she might do but I would like to see a contemporary account.

Linda Anderson · 10-11-2014, 10:22 AM

(10-09-2014 09:51 AM)loetar44 Wrote:
(10-09-2014 08:25 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote: I don't think that either Grant or his wive would state that Mrs. Lincoln was the true reason for them hurrying home.

Do you mean that it is all speculation?

Kees, I don't think that General Grant would admit that Mrs. Lincoln could influence his actions in such a way.

Grant says "an incident of a trifling nature" caused he and Mrs. Grant to leave. Would Grant consider threats on his life "trifling" or is he referring to the dream Mrs. Grant may have had? Mrs. Grant called it a "freak" that she insisted on going home Friday. It's fascinating to learn that the Grants' daughter Emma Dent Casey was the source for Mrs. Grant's premonitory dream. Do you know the source that Ishbel Ross used in The General's Wife: The Life of Ulyssus S. Grant (Julia Grant) for Emma Dent Casey's statement?

I posted the following in the Lincoln & Ann Rutledge thread - post 130.

Regarding the Grants leaving to visit their children on Good Friday, John Russell Young relates what Grant told him about that evening in Around the World with General Grant.

"Lincoln had promised to go to the theater, and wanted me to go with him. While I was with the President, a note came from Mrs. Grant saying she must leave Washington that night. Some incident of a trifling nature had made her resolve to leave that evening. I was glad to have the note, as I did not want to go to the theater. So I made my excuse to Lincoln, and at the proper hour, we started for the train."

In Grant, Jean Edward Smith says that Grant accepted the invitation but that "Historians have assumed that Julia did not wish to spend the evening in Mrs. Lincoln's company."

Julia Grant's version follows. It sounds to me like the Grants could have changed their plans to attend the theater with the Lincolns. When Mrs. Grant says "I do not what possessed me to take such a freak" to go home, I think she is being polite. I suspect her real reason was to avoid being with Mrs. Lincoln not only because she disliked being with her but because Mrs. Lincoln could be quite unpredictable in her behavior and Mrs. Grant certainly would not want a repeat of City Point.

"As soon as the General awoke in the morning, I asked him earnestly if we would not leave for Burlington today. He said: 'I wish I could but I have promised Mr. Lincoln to go up this morning and with him see what can be done in reference to the reduction of the army.' I pleaded earnestly, and he promised me that if he could possibly do so he would try and leave Washington that evening. Just then, a tap at our door brought a note from the President, saying: 'Dear General, Suppose you come at eleven o'clock instead of nine. Robert has just returned and I want to see something of him before I go to work.' The General said that he was afraid that this postponement would prevent his getting off that evening, but on my insisting that I must go, he said, 'Well, I will see what I can do. I certainly will go if it is possible.'"

"At midday a "man dressed in light-colored corduroy coat and trousers and with a rather shabby hat of the same color" showed up at the Grants' door to say, "'Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments to say she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater.' To this, I replied with some feeling (not liking either the looks of the messenger or the message, thinking the former savored of discourtesy and the latter seemed like a command), 'You may return with my compliments to Mrs. Lincoln and say that I regret as General Grant and I intend leaving the city this afternoon, we will not, therefore, be here to accompany President Lincoln and Ms. Lincoln to the theater.' He hesitated a moment, then urged: 'Madam, the papers announce that General Grant with be with the President tonight at the theater.' I said to this: 'You deliver my message to Mrs. Lincoln as I have given it to you. You may go now.' He smiled as he turned to leave. I have thought since that this man was one of the band of conspirators in that night's sad tragedy, and that he was not sent by Mrs. Lincoln at all. I am perfectly sure that he, with three others, one of them [John Wilkes] Booth himself, sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that day.

"As soon as I received the invitation to go with Mrs. Lincoln, I dispatched a note to General Grant entreating him to go home that evening; that I did not want to go to the theater; that he must take me home. I not only wrote to him, but sent three of the staff members who called to pay their respects to me to urge the General to go home that night. I do not know what possessed me to take such a freak, but go home I felt I must. The General sent me word to have my trunks ready and for Jesse and me to have our luncheon, and, if he could be in time, we would take the late afternoon train for Philadelphia.

"It was in obedience to this that I was at late luncheon with Mrs. Rawlins and her little girl and my Jesse when these men came in and sat opposite to us. They all four came in together. I thought I recognized in one of them the messenger of the morning, and one, a dark, pale man, played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth, but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He also seemed very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy."

Mrs. Grant recognized "this same, pale man" glaring at her and General Grant as they rode to the depot later that day.

Julia Dent Grant, The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (Mrs. Ulysses S. Grant)
http://books.google.com/books?id=tQaZhxw...er&f=false

Below is Burlingame's account with the references he used. Grant saying, “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse” makes no sense since neither one of the Grants found out about the invitation until after General Grant left for the White House that morning.

" The previous evening, Lincoln had been too sick with a headache to take a
carriage ride with his wife, who wished to see the brilliant illuminations celebrating Lee’s
surrender. Grant, at Lincoln’s request, had agreed to accompany her. As she and the
general entered their carriage, the crowd that had gathered outside the White House
shouted “Grant!” nine times. Taking offense, Mrs. Lincoln instructed the driver to let her
out, but she changed her mind when the crowd also cheered for the president. This
happened again and again as the carriage proceeded around town. The First Lady
evidently thought it inappropriate that Grant should be cheered before her husband was.
The next day, Grant declined the president’s invitation to join him and Mrs. Lincoln to
attend a performance of Our American Cousin, for he feared incurring her displeasure
again.61 Moreover, Mrs. Grant informed her husband that she did not wish to be around
the First Lady after the unpleasantness at City Point three weeks earlier. (Later she told
Hamilton Fish “that she objected strenuously to accompanying Mrs. Lincoln.”) Grant
said “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse.”62 When the First
Lady’s messenger announced that the presidential carriage would call for her and her
husband at 8 p.m., Julia Grant curtly informed him that they would be out of town that
night.63 And they so were rolling along aboard a train to New Jersey while the Lincolns’
carriage rumbled toward Ford’s Theatre."

61 In the fall of 1869, Grant gave this account to his cabinet. Hamilton Fish diary, entry for 12 November
1869, Fish Papers, Library of Congress.
62 Reminiscences of Susan Man McCulloch, privately owned, in Benjamin P. Thomas and Harold M.
Hyman, Stanton: The Life and Times of Lincoln’s Secretary of War (New York: Knopf, 1962), 395.
63 John Y. Simon, ed., The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (New York: Putnam, 1975), 155.

Michael Burlingame, Abraham Lincoln

STS Lincolnite · 10-11-2014, 10:40 AM

Linda, What edition of Burlingame's book do you have? Mine does not have the same citations. The relevant ones in my copy are numbered in the 50s and do not as clearly cite the Fish diary as the source for the account of the carriage ride.

Thanks!

Linda Anderson · 10-11-2014, 11:02 AM

(10-11-2014 10:40 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: Linda, What edition of Burlingame's book do you have? Mine does not have the same citations. The relevant ones in my copy are numbered in the 50s and do not as clearly cite the Fish diary as the source for the account of the carriage ride.

Thanks!

Scott, I used the manuscript version of Burlingame's book which is available through Knox College. The carriage ride is in Chapter 36.

"The work as originally submitted was even more extensive, but largely because of space limitations, it was considered necessary to condense both the narrative and the accompanying documentation. By agreement with the author and the publisher, and in the interest of giving scholars and other students of Lincoln access to references and sources not appearing in the published version, the Lincoln Studies Center is privileged to present on this site the author's original unedited manuscript. This manuscript is accessible by individual chapters, which are displayed in searchable, read-only PDF format.
The user is advised that the work presented here is copyrighted, that Johns Hopkins University Press reserves all rights, and that this material may not be reproduced without permission."

http://www.knox.edu/about-knox/lincoln-s...oln-a-life

STS Lincolnite · 10-11-2014, 11:48 AM

Thanks so much Linda!! I am anxious to read though this expanded manuscript!

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 10-11-2014 01:52 PM by loetar44.)

(10-11-2014 10:22 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote: It's fascinating to learn that the Grants' daughter Emma Dent Casey was the source for Mrs. Grant's premonitory dream. Do you know the source that Ishbel Ross used in The General's Wife: The Life of Ulyssus S. Grant (Julia Grant) for Emma Dent Casey's statement?

Emma Dent Casey was not Grants' daughter. She was the almost 10 years younger sister of Julia Grant, the last of the eight Dent children (Julia was the fifth.) Her legal name was Emily Marbury Dent, but she was nicknamed “Emma”. Born June 6, 1836; died April 21, 1920; married Feb. 1861 James F. Casey, a brother of former Kentucky Congressman Samuel L. Casey.

Ross only gives in “Notes” published sources; there are no footnotes. In acknowledgements she says about Emma Dent Casey : “The Missouri Historical Society proved to be a fountainhead of intimate material on Mrs, Grant. There I studied the manuscript of her younger sister, Emma Dent Casey, who described in detail their early days at White Haven and the courtship of young Ulysses S. Grant.” So I suspect this is the prime source for Emma's statement. But I fear this manuscript is unpublished.

////////////////

“The General’s wife; the life of Mrs.' Ulysses S. Grant”, page 189 / 190

“Next day they were invited to go to Ford's Theater with the Lincolns to see Laura Keene in Our American Cousins. The Stantons were invited, too, and Mrs. Stanton consulted Julia. "Unless you accept the invitation, I shall refuse," she said. "I will not sit without you in the box with Mrs. Lincoln." But Julia had already made up her mind not to go. She had a good excuse to offer. She must get back to Burlington and the children. Grant was embarrassed when she made her decision, since he had already told the President that they would go. Once again Julia unconsciously was a significant factor in his life. Had they gone with the Lincolns that night the chances are that Grant would have died with the President, for he was on the assassins' list. On the other hand, in later years he was known to express regret that he had not attended the play. He always wondered if the outcome might have been different had he been there. His own stalwart form and a military guard might have made a difference. Another family legend, handed down by Emma Dent Casey, was that Julia had had one of her premonitory dreams of disaster for that night, and when these occurred she was hard to budge. But dreams were in the air. Lincoln had had one, too, presaging his own death.

In the early afternoon Grant shook hands with the President and said good-by, unconscious that it was forever.”

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