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RJNorton · 07-13-2014, 05:18 AM

As I recall Nora Fitzpatrick supported Weichmann's statement on Mary's visit to the Herndon House. But I think Martha Murray, the manager(?) of the Herndon House, said she never came to visit Powell.

BettyO · 07-13-2014, 06:45 AM

I think you are right, Roger. Let me check.... thanks!

L Verge · 07-13-2014, 01:16 PM

I have always wanted to check the lineage of Mary Murray because there were Murrays from Southern Maryland who married into the Huntt family and had distinct Southern leanings. A Murray female was also married to the son of John Chandler Thompson, the proprietor of the T.B. Hotel where Herold spent the night of March 17, 1865. Thompson was surely a member of the Confederate underground, and it was on the porch of his establishment that the Confederate George Emack was able to slip free, stab his Union soldier guard, and escape.

My point to all this is that Mary Murray may have been in the same category as Mrs. Surratt in renting rooms to Confederate agents, and she was not about to squeal on her compatriot. There is no doubt in my mind that Mrs. Surratt paid a visit to Powell.

MaddieM · 07-13-2014, 02:28 PM

(07-13-2014 01:16 PM)L Verge Wrote: I have always wanted to check the lineage of Mary Murray because there were Murrays from Southern Maryland who married into the Huntt family and had distinct Southern leanings. A Murray female was also married to the son of John Chandler Thompson, the proprietor of the T.B. Hotel where Herold spent the night of March 17, 1865. Thompson was surely a member of the Confederate underground, and it was on the porch of his establishment that the Confederate George Emack was able to slip free, stab his Union soldier guard, and escape.

My point to all this is that Mary Murray may have been in the same category as Mrs. Surratt in renting rooms to Confederate agents, and she was not about to squeal on her compatriot. There is no doubt in my mind that Mrs. Surratt paid a visit to Powell.

Yeah but why? Would she do something like risk her reputation just for delivering a message? Or was she going there to find something out? Or because she needed some information?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 07-13-2014 03:59 PM by BettyO.)

Maddie -

That we'll probably never know....unless it was to give information to Powell relayed from her son, John to forward to JWB regarding the plot.....

I've always believed that Mrs. Surratt knew more than was let on. She was probably used to carrying and sending information from her son's operatives in Richmond and Canada to other agents...and by doing so, feeling that she was simply "doing her duty."

STS Lincolnite · 07-13-2014, 04:32 PM

On what date did Mrs. Surratt visit Powell at the Herndon House?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 07-13-2014 05:26 PM by BettyO.)

According to testimony, it was sometime "after the 27th" [of March] according to Weichmann and in the evening. Mrs. Surratt went into the Herndon House "to see Payne" and they walked around the block for 20 minutes waiting for her to come out.

L Verge · 07-13-2014, 06:05 PM

I agree with Betty, and I've always thought she was letting Powell know that her son and Sarah Slater would not be on the scene for awhile.

RJNorton · 07-14-2014, 05:44 AM

(07-13-2014 05:25 PM)BettyO Wrote: According to testimony, it was sometime "after the 27th" [of March] according to Weichmann and in the evening. Mrs. Surratt went into the Herndon House "to see Payne" and they walked around the block for 20 minutes waiting for her to come out.

I should clarify something I said earlier about Nora Fitzpatrick supporting Weichmann's statement that Mary Surratt visited Lewis Powell at the Herndon House. She testified that Mary did indeed enter the Herndon House, but she says Mary stayed only a few minutes and did not tell anyone why she was stopping to go in there. So her testimony is definitely different from Weichmann's. Here is Nora Fitzpatrick's testimony from the John Surratt trial:

Q. I allude to the Herndon House corner of ninth and F; you know the house?

A. I know the house, but I do not know what street it is on.

Q. Do you recollect passing by that house some time in the month of March before the assassination of the President, in company with Mrs. Surratt and others?

A. I remember passing with Mrs. Surratt; I do not know what month it was.

Q. Who were in company with you and Mrs. Surratt at that time?

A. Mrs. Surratt, Mr. Weichmann, and Miss Jenkins.

Q. When you got to the Hemdon House, state what Mrs. Surratt did and what the rest of the party did?

A. Mrs. Surratt went in, the others of us walked up the street a little ways.

Q. Did you wait for her up there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you wait for her?

A. Only a few minutes there.

Q. Where had you been coming from?

A. From St. Patrick's church, on F street.

Q. What day of the week was it?

A. I don't remember, sir.

Q. Did Mrs. Surratt tell you or any of the party, to your knowledge, while you were going in that direction, that she intended going into the house?

A. No, sir; I did not know she was going there until she stopped.

Q. Did you or any of the party ask her what she went there for?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she state to you afterwards what she went in there for?

A. No, sir; I do not remember asking her.

Q. Did you ever hear it spoken of afterwards?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how long she staid there?

A. She remained there a few minutes.

Q. After Mrs. Surratt had been in the house did she come up and join the party?

A. Yes, sir.

Q- Where did you then go?

A. We returned to Mrs. Surratt's house on H street.

Q- Where was John at that time?

A. I don't know.

BettyO · 07-14-2014, 06:02 AM

Weichmann stated in his testimony that Mrs. Surratt remained in the Herndon House about 20 minutes and that they walked around the block....but then who really trusts Weichmann's testimony? He was and I do believe, trying to save his own neck!

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 07-14-2014 07:39 AM by Gene C.)

Weichmann's book was one of the first assassination books I purchased, and it's been a long time since I read it, but I believe most of his testimony. He certainly was in a conflicting position. I'm sure there was some self preservation motive to his actions.

It may have seemed like a short time to Ms. Fitzpatrick, and a longer time to Weichmann.

L Verge · 07-14-2014, 10:41 AM

James O. Hall believed that Weichmann was telling the truth in most cases, but careful to protect his own hide. He thought that some of the stress he was enduring caused him to flub up sometimes also. If I had been dealing with the Feds at that point, I would be so afraid that I would be speaking gibberish!

STS Lincolnite · 07-14-2014, 12:41 PM

I found this photo online. Supposedly the building on the left side, front with the pharmacy awning was the Herndon House (the building is now gone). There was no date given for this photo. I had never seen a photo or drawing of the Herndon House before. Does anyone know if that building is actually the Herndon House and when this might have been taken?

I was curious about Mrs. Surratt's visit to the Herndon House. Did they take a carriage to and from or did they walk to and from St. Patrick's and then back to Mrs. Surratt's boarding house? It wasn't clear to me in Ms. Fitzpatrick's statement that Roger posted and I haven't seen Weichmann's testimony about this incident.

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 07-14-2014 05:34 PM by BettyO.)

The building marked "St Cloud" is indeed the Herndon House. Powell's room was on the 3rd Floor, end/front , so it's possibly facing us as we view the photo - I think that this particular photo was taken in the 1870s-1880s.

The building is no longer there and was torn down to make way for a government building. It was extensively remodeled after the war.

Mrs. Surratt and her companions walked to St Patrick's Church. The area of 9th and F Streets was not too far from the Surratt Boarding House.

1867 Ad touting the renovation of the Herndon House

This is how it looked in 1865 when Powell staid there (large hotel in the middle of the street with the hip roof) This appears in AB.

L Verge · 07-14-2014, 03:12 PM

Also in that 1865 photo is the U.S. Patent Office on the right (the majestic building), which is now the National Portrait Gallery. The majestic building on the left is now the Hotel Monaco. In 1865, it was the U.S. post office for D.C. Booth had his mail delivered to Ford's Theatre, but for other postal services he likely went to this building - as did the Surratts.