Lincoln & Herndon

[Gene C]

1. What ever happened to Lincolns effects, letters & papers from the law office?

2. Did the Lincoln family take possesion or did Herndon get to keep them as part of the law firm? Were they split up?

3. Do we know what the real cause or beginning of the hard feelings between the Lincoln familly and Herndon?

4. How long after Lincoln died did the law office stay open?

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-27-2014 02:06 PM)Gene C Wrote:  3. Do we know what the real cause or beginning of the hard feelings between the Lincoln familly and Herndon?

I am not sure - whom exactly do you mean by the "Lincoln family", Mary? Robert? Both? And what by "beginning of hard feelings"? I assume you don't mean the very beginning, Herndon's comparison of Mary to a serpent, and their general mutual dislike, but the "Rutledge issue" again?!
However, despite their mutual dislike, when in 1866 Herndon asked Mary for an interview for his biography, Mary responded friendly and kindly, and saw him in Springfield then.
On Nov. 16, 1866 he delivered his lecture in Springfield about Lincoln, Rutledge, and New Salem, in which (as you sure know) he claimed and promoted that after Ann Rutledge's death Lincoln never again loved another woman - including Mary Todd Lincoln. I think most people (spouses) would have been upset in her position. Robert's gruge, too, mainly rooted in this, and as he feared further denunciation, he AFAIK tried unsuccessfully to prevent "Herndon's Lincoln" to be published.

(06-27-2014 02:06 PM)Gene C Wrote:  1. What ever happened to Lincolns effects, letters & papers from the law office?

2. Did the Lincoln family take possesion or did Herndon get to keep them as part of the law firm? Were they split up?
[quote='Gene C' pid='34849' dateline='1403895988']
1. What ever happened to Lincolns effects, letters & papers from the law office?

2. Did the Lincoln family take possesion or did Herndon get to keep them as part of the law firm? Were they split up?

4. How long after Lincoln died did the law office stay open?

Gene, I found this:

In 1862, Herndon entered into an informal partnership with Charles S. Zane, one of Lincoln's office boys, who later became judge of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Illinois. Herndon's last law partner from 1869 until 1877, when he retired, was Alfred Orendorff.

If you click on the first link on this site, you can search for Lincoln's legal cases/documents:
http://www.papersofabrahamlincoln.org/th...s/series-i

As for the books, this is from the website of the Lincoln Collection/William E. Barton Collection of Books from the Lincoln and Herndon Law Library:

"The Rev. William Eleazar Barton (1861-1930) was one of the early twentieth century's most prominent writers and lecturers on the life of Abraham Lincoln...While acquiring a large collection of books, periodicals, pamphlets, manuscripts, and ephemera related to Lincoln and the Civil War era, Barton also purchased privately or at auction historical materials amassed by other Lincoln collectors such as John E. Burton and Osborn H. Oldroyd.

In 1926, William E. Barton purchased the available volumes of the Lincoln-Herndon law office library in the hope that they would form a single, important collection of historical interest. Neither Abraham Lincoln nor William H. Herndon had been concerned with accumulating a library. When Lincoln left Springfield, IL for Washington, D.C. to assume the presidency, his law books remained in the office with his partner William H. Herndon. Herndon, in turn, when closing the practice, left behind these books as well as a large number of other volumes, papers, pamphlets and miscellaneous material. His successor, Major Alfred Orendorff, recognized their historical value and kept them as a collection. At the time of Orendorff’s death, approximately 100 of these books remained in the hands of his family. These were purchased en bloc by Barker’s Art Store of Springfield, IL.

Barton became concerned about the collection when he saw books belonging to the partnership appearing in various Lincoln collections. Immediately prior to his purchase, for example, the Pennsylvania State Historical Society had acquired about 25 volumes from Barker’s. Barton contacted Duncan McDonald, Barker’s proprietor, and discovered that 70 volumes from the Orendorff sale still remained.

Of these 70, eight were claimed to have been Lincoln’s own law books before the formation of the partnership and bore the inscription: “A. Lincoln to W.H. Herndon” in Herndon’s hand on the verso of the front cover. Another 52 volumes were law books from the partnership and most bore Herndon’s signature. A final group of ten books was sold to Barton as “miscellaneous volumes.” These included a group of U.S. government publications and a few non-legal, non-governmental books.

After the purchase of Barton’s collection of Lincolniana by the University of Chicago, this core group of 70 volumes was augmented by the inclusion of several other non-law books. The majority are of uncertain provenance, though several do bear Herndon’s signature."

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findi...L.LINCHERN

[RJNorton]

(06-27-2014 02:06 PM)Gene C Wrote:  3. Do we know what the real cause or beginning of the hard feelings between the Lincoln familly and Herndon?

Perhaps the childrens' behavior contributed to it?

Herndon wrote, "It happened that sometimes Lincoln would comedown to our office of a Sunday with one or two of his little children, hauling them in the same little wagon, and in our office, then and there, write declarations, pleas, and other legal papers. The children spoilt ones to be sure would tear up the office, scatter the books, smash up pens, spill the ink, and (go to the bathroom) all over the floor. I have felt many and many a time that I wanted to wring their little necks, and yet out of respect for Lincoln I kept my mouth shut. Lincoln did not note what his children were doing or had done. When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically."

Because he had such high feelings for Lincoln perhaps Herndon (in his own prejudiced mind) gave Lincoln a pass and blamed only Mary for the boys' antics in the law office?

[Eva Elisabeth]

And Mary greatly disliked Herndon's fondness of alcohol.

[LincolnToddFan]

[When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically."]// quote

Hi Roger,

Can you or someone else please explain to me how in the %$# Herndon knew that Lincoln got a "scolding" when he returned home with the children?? Did AL discuss it with him back at the office.."Oh, Mary slapped me around again"?

Why did he write this, when he already admitted AL never discussed his personal life with him?

[BettyO]

I agree with you, Toia.

I am one who thinks that Herndon elaborated a lot of things -- most Victorian men, I feel, would not discuss their private home life/relations with their spouse among others - men or women! It simply wouldn't be done. I also feel that Lincoln was more or less reserved in talking about his home life with others.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-28-2014 06:41 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Why did he write this, when he already admitted AL never discussed his personal life with him?

...because he believed as he once claimed: "I could read his secrets"...
I agree, Betty, I, too, am one who thinks that Herndon elaborated a lot of things!

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Eva and Betty

Maybe it was all a part of the process of burnishing Lincoln's "cross and crown" (as he told Isaac Arnold he was determined to do) by assuming Lincoln always got misery after bringing the boys home from the office.

[David Lockmiller]

(06-28-2014 04:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 02:06 PM)Gene C Wrote:  3. Do we know what the real cause or beginning of the hard feelings between the Lincoln familly and Herndon?

Perhaps the childrens' behavior contributed to it?

Herndon wrote, "It happened that sometimes Lincoln would comedown to our office of a Sunday with one or two of his little children, hauling them in the same little wagon, and in our office, then and there, write declarations, pleas, and other legal papers. The children spoilt ones to be sure would tear up the office, scatter the books, smash up pens, spill the ink, and (go to the bathroom) all over the floor. I have felt many and many a time that I wanted to wring their little necks, and yet out of respect for Lincoln I kept my mouth shut. Lincoln did not note what his children were doing or had done. When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically."

Because he had such high feelings for Lincoln perhaps Herndon (in his own prejudiced mind) gave Lincoln a pass and blamed only Mary for the boys' antics in the law office?

I think that he gave Lincoln a pass because Lincoln permitted the boys to do so. But, go to the bathroom? There must have been limits.

[Mike B.]

(06-28-2014 09:36 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 04:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 02:06 PM)Gene C Wrote:  3. Do we know what the real cause or beginning of the hard feelings between the Lincoln familly and Herndon?

Perhaps the childrens' behavior contributed to it?

Herndon wrote, "It happened that sometimes Lincoln would comedown to our office of a Sunday with one or two of his little children, hauling them in the same little wagon, and in our office, then and there, write declarations, pleas, and other legal papers. The children spoilt ones to be sure would tear up the office, scatter the books, smash up pens, spill the ink, and (go to the bathroom) all over the floor. I have felt many and many a time that I wanted to wring their little necks, and yet out of respect for Lincoln I kept my mouth shut. Lincoln did not note what his children were doing or had done. When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically."

Because he had such high feelings for Lincoln perhaps Herndon (in his own prejudiced mind) gave Lincoln a pass and blamed only Mary for the boys' antics in the law office?

I think that he gave Lincoln a pass because Lincoln permitted the boys to do so. But, go to the bathroom? There must have been limits.

Doug Wilson has said that the evidence of a Herndon/Lincoln fight before the 1866 Ann Rutledge lecture. Mary was very gracious in her letter to Herndon agreeing to an interview before that and said how much her husband had appreciated and liked Herndon.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Herndon had written to Robert for an interview, and Mary herself had responded with a very kind letter, inviting Herndon to meet her in Springfield. This is her letter:

"375 West Washington Street, Chicago, Ill., August 28, 1866.
Hon. Wm. H. Herndon.
My Dear Sir:—Owing to Robert's absence from Chicago your last letter to him was only shown me last evening. The recollection of my beloved husband's truly affectionate regard for you, and the knowledge of your great love and reverence for the best man that ever lived, would of itself cause you to be cherished with the sincerest regard by my sons and myself. In my overwhelming bereavement those who loved my idolized husband aside from disinterested motives are very precious to me and mine. My grief has been so uncontrollable that, in consequence, I have been obliged to bury myself in solitude, knowing that many whom I would see could not fully enter into the state of my feelings. I have been thinking for some time past I would like to see you and have a long conversation. I wish to know if you will be in Springfield next Wednesday week, September 4; if so, at ten o'clock in the morning you will find me at the St. Nicholas Hotel. Please mention this visit to Springfield to no one. It is a most sacred one, as you may suppose, to visit the tomb which contains my all in life—my husband. If it will not be convenient, or if business at the time specified should require your absence, should you visit Chicago any day this week I will be pleased to see you. I remain,
Very truly,
Mary Lincoln."

[LincolnMan]

All these posts about Lincoln & Herndon made me want to pull Herndon's Lincoln off the shelf. Alas, it's gone! I have no idea where it went. I haven't read it in years. Well, I just ordered another copy from Amazon. I'm looking forward to glancing through it again. We've talked a lot about some of the "problems" with Herndon's work, but it still is a valuable resource. I think all would agree? What do we think Herndon gave us that is reliable that we would not have gotten from anyone or anywhere else?

[L Verge]

I'm not one for memorizing dates, but after reading Eva's posting above of the 1866, very cordial letter that Mrs. Lincoln sent to her nemesis, would someone please provide a timeline showing approximately when Herndon's vendetta against the First Lady began and when it was at its height, and finally when other authors decided to follow suit?

[LincolnMan]

Herndon is buried in Oak Ridge Cemetery in Springfield (where Lincoln's tomb is). Maybe the October crew will have a chance to go there again and find Herndon's grave.

[Gene C]

I'd like to visit the cemetery again, too. Maybe they will have made the repairs to Lincoln's Tomb.