In Mary's personal letters....

[Eva Elisabeth]

There's obviously a letter Mary wrote to Mary Harlan on Oct. 16, 1869 in which Mary remembered Tad's birth as so difficult that "instruments were on hand when needed". Unfortunatelly it's not in the Turners' book (wanted to read this in it's context, most likely the letter was in the insanity file).

I just can't find any origin of one of the two stories about Tad's nicknaming and find that quite strange as these are so commonly "known".

[RJNorton]

(08-04-2014 05:02 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thanks for your replies! (Actually it was the context of Mr. Tripp's book and theories in which I found this too weak as an argument) IMO four children were not (too) few - was it really few in those days? Compared to Mary's number of siblings and half-siblings perhaps, but what about the average family of those days?

Eva, according to this page:

"Average number of children born to women in antebellum America: 6-7"

"Average number of children born to women in America today: about 2"

[RJNorton]

(08-04-2014 07:50 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  There's obviously a letter Mary wrote to Mary Harlan on Oct. 16, 1869 in which Mary remembered Tad's birth as so difficult that "instruments were on hand when needed". Unfortunatelly it's not in the Turners' book (wanted to read this in it's context, most likely the letter was in the insanity file).

Eva, I found it in the insanity file. When in Frankfurt Mary Lincoln writes Mary Harlan, "With your good Constitution, the care that will be taken of you - an excellent physician - you can but do well With Bob - I had two physicians & with Taddie two also & instruments were if they should be required on hand."

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thank you for all the info, Roger! (As for the birth rate - just to compare: Germany in 1860: 4,7 children/woman, since the 1990s: constantly 1,3)

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Eva, and Roger-

Mary saw her own mother die in childbirth as a little girl. Her step-mother Betsy was literally constantly giving birth, exhausting herself with one pregnancy after another.

When the smoke all cleared, Robert Smith Todd had fathered 13-14 children (including his first and second wives)!

Mary probably felt that four pregnancies were enough, especially after the last difficult experience. Pregnancy and childbirth in those days was not the relatively easy routine experience it is today. A woman was going on an excruciating and frightening journey from which she might not return. Frankly I don't know how ANY of them managed to survive in those days of substandard hygiene and lack of adequate pain relief.

Mary mentions in her letters that "instruments"(forceps?) were on hand for Tad's delivery but she doesn't say whether or not they were used.

Jean Baker believes that Mary practiced birth control-something new in those times for middle and upper class females. She nursed all her sons much longer than was normal as a way of suppressing ovulation(I remember reading a letter from one of AL's friends who expressed surprise that Mary was still nursing Willie when he was approaching two years old. Willie developed thrush as a result)

Perhaps they would have had more children otherwise...I get the feeling they both would have been thrilled to have had a little girl.

Eva...does A.C. Tripp really reference the fact that the Lincolns had "only" four children to support his theories?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Toia, I just wanted to post quite the same - whether it resulted in a "chronic" damage/problem or not - obviously there was some difficulty about Tad's birth, and since Willie had his playmate and Mary's mother as many died in childbed it's understandable she (and her husband in order not to lose her) thoght that was enough now. As for the birth control and the (by some, like Tripp) suspected abstinence thentheforth it would be interesting to know whether Mary and A. L. also (despite the connection to nursing) knew about ovulation and conception.

As for your last question - I'm just at the very beginning (and also still reading two other books - all too fascinating to delay), so far not the but four children, but to word it plainly, he presumes that the Lincolns' sexual abstinence due to Mary's physical damage (a fact to him) from Tad's birth, plus the seperated bedrooms and frequent travels opened the door for a Lincoln-Derickson relationship for which A. L. actively sought the latter (being attracted to him at first sight).

[RJNorton]

(08-04-2014 10:36 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  As for your last question - I'm just at the very beginning (and also still reading two other books - all too fascinating to delay), so far not the but four children, but to word it plainly, he presumes that the Lincolns' sexual abstinence due to Mary's physical damage (a fact to him) from Tad's birth, plus the seperated bedrooms and frequent travels opened the door for a Lincoln-Derickson relationship for which A. L. actively sought the latter (being attracted to him at first sight).

On page 45 of "Abraham Lincoln: The Man Behind the Myths" by Stephen B. Oates it states:

"Still, their intimacy suffered in later years. After the birth of Tad in 1853, Mary contracted a serious gynecological disease which, in the judgement of one specialist, 'probably ended sexual intercourse between the Lincolns.' After that, both became increasingly active outside their home, Mary in trips and shopping expeditions and Lincoln in politics. In 1858, the year Lincoln challenged Stephen A. Douglas for his seat in the United States Senate, he and Mary had separate bedrooms installed when they enlarged and remodeled their Springfield home."

Does anyone know who this "specialist" is? I do not see why Tripp would regard this as fact. How in the world would anyone other than Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln know what the fact was? At this point this seems speculative to me, not fact. I do not see sufficient evidence in Mary's writings to conclude this.

[LincolnToddFan]

[As for the birth control and the (by some, like Tripp) suspected abstinence thentheforth it would be interesting to know whether Mary and A. L. also (despite the connection to nursing) knew about ovulation and conception.] quote

Eva...I will need to grab my copy of Jean Baker's bio but she says in mid-19th century America there was an increased awareness for American women regarding birth control. There were lots of discreet magazines and periodicals directed toward middle class women that discussed taboo subjects like birth control. The Lincolns, being the well read progressive couple they were, would certainly have known about them.

Roger, like you I am baffled and amused by people who assume to know on authority that their "intimacy suffered". Mary's intimates like Elizabeth Blair and Lizzie Keckly felt otherwise. As previously stated they were seen sharing a bed on more than one occasion during their WH years. Even at the end of her life, in a state of illness and confusion, Mary insisted that one side of her bed was "the President's side".

Certainly they were under great tension and stress during those years, but the leap to a complete lack of intimacy is a big one, imo.

I have no (printable) comment on A.C. Tripp's speculations.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(08-04-2014 11:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  At this point this seems speculative to me, not fact. I do not see sufficient evidence in Mary's writings to conclude this.

I absolutely agree on this, and this goes for all I've so far read of Tripp's propositions.

E.g. he takes this Derickson memoir, the "bed sharing" and Lincoln's seemingly "desire" to be close to Derickson as one paramount "proof" (or argument) - but since Derickson so openly wrote about all this - if there was an intimate relationship, why didn't he write about this, too, or at least indicate it? Bed sharing was common back then, despite this there is nothing "erotic" in Derickson's account. Right the opposite - Derickson himself wondered why Lincoln wanted him so close. Why did he (pretend to) wonder this if he knew the answer - sexual intercourse/relationship? If there was any, he wouldn't have had to wonder, he knew what it was form Also I think in this case he would rather have kept it a secret because he would have expected people to gossip and draw such conclusions. So far I think Derickson was a rather naive guy who frankly told all he knew.

BTW, what you said, Roger, reminds me of Herndon's comment (written in a letter to Lamon) on the claims he (Herndon) himself made of Lincoln's illegitimacy: "The evidence is not conclusive, but men have been hung on less." Yes, sadly.

[LincolnToddFan]

I think it's more obvious than ever before that historians and biographers have taken the fact(s) that A) the Lincolns moved into separate rooms and had no more children after Tad and B) Mary wrote a letter referring to a "disease of a womanly nature" of which she had been "more or less a sufferer" after Tad's birth...and have come to the conclusion that the Lincolns had no marital relations after Tad was born.

It's really astonishing when you think of it, that that is ALL it's based on.(Unless there is other evidence I am not aware of)

First of all...I am not sure there is an injury a woman could suffer during childbirth that would render her permanently incapable of having relations. Tears eventually heal over time. And Mary's letter did not refer to an injury...she spoke of a "disease"...the nature of which is not really a mystery when one takes into account her 1863 letter to her husband about her female suffering during her NYC holiday with Lizzie and Tad.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(08-04-2014 11:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I do not see why Tripp would regard this as fact.

Roger, when I first read the respective passage and sentence, to me the way Tripp's worded it undoubtedly expressed he regarded the injury a fact. Upon re-reading and reconsideration, it might be possible to read the following in two different ways:

"The Lincolns presumably had little if any sex for ten years, due to severe physical damage (probably vaginal tearing) that Mary had sustained while giving birth to Tad,...,damage that made later sexual intercourse painful."

I read the "presumably" as refering solely to the concluded abstinence, and the "due to severe physical damage" as fact from which Tripp drew the conclusion. Maybe though the presumably was intended for both - the injury and the conclusion (which would make the conclusion even weaker IMO!). Still I'd rather read it the first and instant way I did.

[LincolnToddFan]

Goodness...who or what on earth does A.C. Tripp use for his sources here??!

[Eva Elisabeth]

Toia, I would love to know, too. The following sentence quotes Mary's "My disease is of a womanly nature", and this letter is the only reference Tripp gives for the entire passage. No source for the "damage". The ...part I left out above is "(Tad,) with his especially large head". That's why I wanted to find something (contemporary) about the origin of his nickname as I hoped to find more on the birth in that context.

[RJNorton]

In Lincoln's Sons Ruth Painter Randall wrote, "Dear little Taddie was named, for my husband's father, Thomas Lincoln - no T - for a middle name - was nicknamed, Taddie, by his loving Father," wrote Mrs. Lincoln a dozen years after his birth. That seemed fair enough - to name one son for the grandfather on the Todd side and one for the grandfather on the Lincoln side. The baby's head was larger than usual and Mr. Lincoln, viewing the contrast between head and tiny baby figure (perhaps looking on as his mother gave him a bath), called him a little Tadpole, and thus started a nickname that was ultimately to be known all over the nation."

I have also seen the "as wriggly as a tadpole" phrase used for Tad's name, but I do not know the original source for that. I also do not know the source for Ruth Painter Randall's version.
We have an original source (Mary's letter) that it was Abraham who gave Tad the nickname, but at this point, I have not yet seen an original source for exactly why the name was given.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thank you so much, Roger, especially for quoting from the letter!!