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loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 02:56 PM by loetar44.)

Jim used the moniker “rubber box” for the State Box at Ford’s in post #25 at

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-2.html

and he is right! Imagine the scene shortly after JWB fired his deadly bullet… Abraham Lincoln, stretched out on the floor, three doctors (Leale, Taft, King) – maybe four (if Gatch or Sabin was there), Mary and Clara, wearing full gowns, Henry Rathbone, bleeding profusely, Kent (“About three minutes after the President was shot, I went into his box”), four soldiers (Soles, Sample, Griffiths and Corey rushed into the box), maybe five (Ltn. Bolten), maybe several others (unknown to me). Don’t forget the furniture (in addition to AL’s rocker there were at least four chairs and a settee). Imagine how much floor space this took up. And….in front of the small door a press of people. And suddenly there is Laura Keene, wearing a full gown complete with hoop skirt, carrying a pitcher of water and accompanied by Ferguson, or the alternative story by Gourlay…. Laura Keene in full dress gown, kneeling at AL’s side, taking his head in her lap. How could that have fit in the small box with all those people and furniture. How was she able to get so quick off the stage (remember in full dress gown with hoop and pitcher - where did she fetch the water?) and move through an angry mob and/or a small alleyway up a small stair. Is this all a hoax or a legend that evolved over time, or saw Laura (or her managers) an opportunity and took it by inventing this story? Where is the primary evidence that can prove that it actually happened?

L Verge · 09-10-2014, 03:29 PM

Good luck figuring it all out, Kees. That's a scenario that many of us have debated (and laughed about) for many years! It's just not rooms and presidential boxes that can be stretched like rubber -- the truth of who was there can be stretched a lot also...

Jim Garrett · 09-10-2014, 03:56 PM

The Presidential box (7&8), when put together have an unusual shape, somewhat L shaped. The vestibule, or entry hall was made from space taken from box 7. It would be an extremely tight fit with 10 people in the box all at once, but if you include the vestibule as part of the box, the additional space makes it move conceiveable. Rich Smyth and I have gone over and over the issue of whether Thomas Gourlay and Laura Keene were in the box. We believe that Gourlay and Keene were in the box. If I remember correctly, Neither Keene nor Gourlay left a written record, however there were a number of credible accounts of them in the box.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 04:15 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Kees, please see this, you might find it interesting:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ight=keene
(The Keene-in-the-box issue is debated till the end of the thread.)

(09-10-2014 03:56 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: If I remember correctly, Neither Keene nor Gourlay left a written record, however there were a number of credible accounts of them in the box.

P. 226 in "Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination" reads:
"Keene, too, refused to discuss the assassination after issuing an initial statement on April 29, which was printed in the 'Clipper' and other newspapers. In it, she restricted herself to narrating her own actions that evening:...heard a call for water, and then made her way...to the president's box, remaining with him until he was carried out." The statement might have been the one Roger posted here (post #89):
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ge-6.html?

Kees, have you read Tom Bogar's fantastic book ("Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination")? I'm sure you will love it!!!

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 05:18 PM by loetar44.)

(09-10-2014 03:29 PM)L Verge Wrote: Good luck figuring it all out, Kees. That's a scenario that many of us have debated (and laughed about) for many years! It's just not rooms and presidential boxes that can be stretched like rubber -- the truth of who was there can be stretched a lot also...

Laughed about? What do you mean exactly? Laughed about the arguments that Laura Keene was indeed in the State Box, or laughed about the contra arguments she was not? It is my understanding that it is at least highly questionable whether she would have been able to get there. And yes, truth may be stretched, but cannot be broken! I’m not a person automatically believing what’s being said, and always willing to take the time to fact check and hear other arguments. Of course, I know the story of the blooded gown, of course I know the arguments used to “prove” that Laura was in the state box, but I also do know that all these arguments are secondary. My question was: where is the primary evidence? BTW. Have you read the blog of Norman Gasbarro about this subject? He has IMO a good story I certainly did not consider laughable.

http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/author/normgas/

(09-10-2014 03:56 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: The Presidential box (7&8), when put together have an unusual shape, somewhat L shaped. The vestibule, or entry hall was made from space taken from box 7. It would be an extremely tight fit with 10 people in the box all at once, but if you include the vestibule as part of the box, the additional space makes it move conceiveable. Rich Smyth and I have gone over and over the issue of whether Thomas Gourlay and Laura Keene were in the box. We believe that Gourlay and Keene were in the box. If I remember correctly, Neither Keene nor Gourlay left a written record, however there were a number of credible accounts of them in the box.

Thanks Jim, even with the vestibule included, some writers have said that it’s only possible that all those people could have fit in the box if they were stacked on top of each other. Of course an exaggerating statement .....ha, ha, ha.

(09-10-2014 03:56 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Kees, please see this, you might find it interesting:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ight=keene
(The Keene-in-the-box issue is debated till the end of the thread.)

(09-10-2014 03:56 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: If I remember correctly, Neither Keene nor Gourlay left a written record, however there were a number of credible accounts of them in the box.
P. 226 in "Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination" reads:
"Keene, too, refused to discuss the assassination after issuing an initial statement on April 29, which was printed in the 'Clipper' and other newspapers. In it, she restricted herself to narrating her own actions that evening:...heard a call for water, and then made her way...to the president's box, remaining with him until he was carried out." The statement might have been the one Roger posted here (post #89):
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ge-6.html?

Kees, have you read Tom Bogar's fantastic book ("Backstage at the Lincoln Assassination")? I'm sure you will love it!!!

Hi Eva! Good advice. I haven't read Bogar's book. I will try to borrow from my library. Have you an ISBN ?

Eva Elisabeth · 09-10-2014, 06:04 PM

Wow, you can borrow such books at the libraries in NL??? The ISBN # is: 978-1-62157-083-7.
This is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1621570835...mp_s_a_1_1
...and there's also a thread on this one:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...1338.html?

L Verge · 09-10-2014, 06:08 PM

Kees, what I was referring to as laughable were the claims from so many people that they had been present in the presidential box as Lincoln lay dying on the floor. I was not making a disparaging remark solely about Laura Keene. However, I do question the validity of her claim to have made it to the point of holding the President's head in her lap. My instinct (and that is all it is) is that she was probably in the hallway looking in - not actively participating, which would have impeded the doctors' efforts.

Eva Elisabeth · 09-10-2014, 06:51 PM

(09-10-2014 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: However, I do question the validity of her claim to have made it to the point of holding the President's head in her lap. My instinct (and that is all it is) is that she was probably in the hallway looking in - not actively participating, which would have impeded the doctors' efforts.

My instinct agrees. Maybe she indeed delivered that ominous pitcher of water - but what happened to it? Despite the items found in Lincoln's pocket, could someone kindly help to refresh my memory as for the other items picked up in the box?

Jim Garrett · 09-10-2014, 07:03 PM

(09-10-2014 06:51 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(09-10-2014 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: However, I do question the validity of her claim to have made it to the point of holding the President's head in her lap. My instinct (and that is all it is) is that she was probably in the hallway looking in - not actively participating, which would have impeded the doctors' efforts.
My instinct agrees. Maybe she indeed delivered that ominous pitcher of water - but what happened to it? Despite the items found in Lincoln's pocket, could someone kindly help to refresh my memory as for the other items picked up in the box?

No pitcher has surfaced. Found in the box were Deringer, shirt collar, pine bar (in vestibule), hat. Other items, cane and bloodstained flag.

RJNorton · 09-11-2014, 04:12 AM

(09-10-2014 03:56 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: The Presidential box (7&8), when put together have an unusual shape, somewhat L shaped. The vestibule, or entry hall was made from space taken from box 7. It would be an extremely tight fit with 10 people in the box all at once, but if you include the vestibule as part of the box, the additional space makes it move conceiveable. Rich Smyth and I have gone over and over the issue of whether Thomas Gourlay and Laura Keene were in the box. We believe that Gourlay and Keene were in the box. If I remember correctly, Neither Keene nor Gourlay left a written record, however there were a number of credible accounts of them in the box.

Hi Jim. Do you feel the Gourlay claim is more credible than the Ferguson claim? Wasn't the Gourlay claim actually made by his daughter, not Gourlay himself? Ferguson's didn't come until 1930, but he said:

"Miss Keene and I stood where we could see everything, and for some short moments she held her place by my side. I saw her start toward the footlights. Following, I assisted her over them to the floor of the orchestra pit. We went rapidly to the lobby stairs, and thence up to the box, arriving as Major Rathbone was opening the hall door, after pulling away the obstructing bar placed by Booth.

We pushed our way to the front of the small group gathered before the door, and on into the hall and into the box."

Jim Garrett · 09-11-2014, 06:16 AM

Hi Roger: I do feel that Gourlay was more credible than Ferguson. There was a back staircase, somewhere on the downhill side of the theatre. I think that the fact that Gourlay did not leave a statement actually may work for him.

I can't imagine in all the chaos in the theatre, that Ferguson would have been successful in getting Keene to the Presidential box in any feasible amount of time. I haven't read Ferguson's book for a couple of years, but I think there were some statements inconsistent with most other statements. Ferguson wrote the book roughly 65 years after the event and I'm sure a few of his memories changed over that time.

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 08:21 AM by loetar44.)

(09-10-2014 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: Kees, what I was referring to as laughable were the claims from so many people that they had been present in the presidential box as Lincoln lay dying on the floor. I was not making a disparaging remark solely about Laura Keene. However, I do question the validity of her claim to have made it to the point of holding the President's head in her lap. My instinct (and that is all it is) is that she was probably in the hallway looking in - not actively participating, which would have impeded the doctors' efforts.

I agree Laurie that there were so many claims from so many that they were present in the state box, or present at AL’s death bed, or helped carrying him to the Petersen house. You can laugh about that, but it is in human nature to stretch the truth. So many people do so. Mostly it is not more than an exaggeration, they don’t mean to lie, getting away with it because their audience (the public) is willing to believe the story and take no time to check the facts. I think only for historians there is a line between exaggeration and the truth. Laura Keene herself did never make a statement and she never exaggerated her role, others did. So, I think the story did not really gnawed at her, and I think did not make her feel uncomfortable down to her bones. However, when the story was out it was for her tough to keep a moral compass. For me it makes her not dishonest or untrustworthy, only human.

(09-10-2014 06:04 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Wow, you can borrow such books at the libraries in NL??? The ISBN # is: 978-1-62157-083-7.
This is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1621570835...mp_s_a_1_1
...and there's also a thread on this one:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...1338.html?

not the public library. but the Rotterdam University Library. Thanks Eva for the ISBN!

(09-11-2014 06:16 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Hi Roger: I do feel that Gourlay was more credible than Ferguson. There was a back staircase, somewhere on the downhill side of the theatre. I think that the fact that Gourlay did not leave a statement actually may work for him.

I can't imagine in all the chaos in the theatre, that Ferguson would have been successful in getting Keene to the Presidential box in any feasible amount of time. I haven't read Ferguson's book for a couple of years, but I think there were some statements inconsistent with most other statements. Ferguson wrote the book roughly 65 years after the event and I'm sure a few of his memories changed over that time.

IMO: it all comes down to deciding “which eyewitnesses… you believe”.

No direct statement from Laura Keene has ever been found.

Clara Harris vehemently denied that Laura Keene was ever at any time in the state box.

A statement by Dr. Leale confirmed that Laura Keene was there and that he gave her permission to hold the president’s head in her lap.

Jeannie Gourlay made the statement that her father escorted Laura Keene to the state box and later wrote that Laura Keene raised Lincoln’s head and “…found blood trickling down her dress.”

The statements were actually made many years later Dr. Charles Leale (44 years), Jeannie Gourlay (58 years) and like you said Jim: William Ferguson 65 years.

Jim, I also hardly believe that Gourlay was successful in getting Laura there. To get to the state box, Keene and Gourlay would have had to exit the theatre from the stage, climb an outside staircase, enter a lounge adjacent to the dress circle, and then traverse the side of the dress circle to get in the box.

Tom Bogar · 09-11-2014, 09:59 AM

I realize that I will never convert any naysayers on this long-debated issue (Keene in the box), but I have come down on the side of her being there based on the same factors which kept her biographer, Ben Graf Henneke, similarly convinced until his recent death: her consummate, rigorous professionalism. This was a woman who had succeeded as a theatrical manager in an essentially otherwise man's world, who always reacted instinctively to control and manage any even potentially disruptive situation. Many of her company members over the years commented on this singular trait of hers, even at times to the point of denigrating her rigidity. Tom Gourlay's knowledge of the backstage geography of Ford's Theatre and the saloon/residence building to its south would have been appreciated by--and immediately made use of by--Keene, who would have realized after her unsuccessful attempt to quiet the crowd, that she could never make it up to the box through the audience. While this is of course only my own humble professional judgment call, I remain convinced of her presence, especially considering her vivid detail, in her one public statement, that looking down at the wounded president reminded her of Mantegna's "Dead Christ" and its foreshortened perspective. It will be so much easier for future historians studying our own era of omnipresent video monitoring!

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 10:08 AM by Gene C.)

How would Laura Keene have been dressed, had she made it into the presidential box? With those big dresses, making it up the stairs, down that narrow corridor, and finally into the box, it must have been very crowded, even for a short period of time. And how quickly could she have gotton to the box? That's why I am a bit skeptical at this point.

For you fashion experts. How much personal space would Mary, Clara and Laura occupy or need the way they were dressed that night. Do we know what Mary wore? I don't recall any discussion of that before.

J. Beckert · 09-11-2014, 11:21 AM

Being he was also very tight lipped about that night, I find Dr. Leale's statement that Keene was there very compelling. It seems only two items were used by Leale to assist in his very basic treatment of the President in the box - a pen knife and some water. If Keene did indeed bring one of them, it seems that maybe at some point the box was cleared out for her.

Just a personal insight on Mr. Gasbarro's blog. While I found it extremely interesting and informative when there was a discussion here of how Keene could have gotten to the box, it seems when he gets an idea in his head, he doggedly pursues that one angle. He's also been rather rude to a member of this forum that has done extensive research on the assassination.