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L Verge · 09-08-2014, 01:02 PM

Several decades ago, a descendant of Dr. Joseph Janvier Woodward donated the box that he used to ship his medical supplies from place to place during the war to Surratt House. I was led to believe that Dr. Woodward was present at the autopsy, but not at the deathbed.

RJNorton · 09-08-2014, 01:07 PM

(09-08-2014 01:02 PM)L Verge Wrote: Several decades ago, a descendant of Dr. Joseph Janvier Woodward donated the box that he used to ship his medical supplies from place to place during the war to Surratt House. I was led to believe that Dr. Woodward was present at the autopsy, but not at the deathbed.

I agree, Laurie.

What was new to me was the phrase "honorary MD" which Dr. Ashbel Woodward received in 1854. I had not heard the phrase "honorary MD" before.

Kees, in the 2013 Journal of the Lincoln Assassination Fred Hatch made a list of all people present at the Petersen House at some point (even if only a minute or two) during the night. Fred's criteria for making the list was there must be more than one source for inclusion. Willie Clark is not in the list, but Dr. Ashbel Woodward is. Joseph Janvier Woodward is not. Dr. William Henry Ford is not in the list, but Dr. Charles Mason Ford is.

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-08-2014 02:12 PM by loetar44.)

(09-08-2014 12:26 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Kees, there is no mention of Ashbel Woodward in Reck's book. Also, there is no mention of Joseph Janvier Woodward at the deathbed.

In the December 2003 edition of Fred Hatch's Journal of the Lincoln Assassination the author includes Dr. Ashbel Woodward (1804-1885) in the list of attending doctors. Fred writes that Dr. Ashbel Woodward "was born in Wellington, Connecticut, and graduated from Bowdoin College medical department in 1829. He received an honorary M.D. from Yale in 1854. Volunteering to serve in the war, he served in the 26th army corps."

Thanks Roger. so the list I put together seems to be okay: Ashbel Woodward was attending at the Petersen House; Janvier Woodward was at the autopsy in the White House; Dr. William H. Ford was never at AL's bedside and Dr. Charles M. Ford was.

(09-08-2014 01:30 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [Nine men were present for the autopsy: Barnes, Crane, Stone, Taft, Notson, Gen. Rucker of the Army’s Quartermaster Dept., Lincoln’s friend Orville H. Browning and the doctors]// quote

kees, that is an EXHAUSTIVE amount of research and typing...thanks! I know that there were military as well as civilian observers to AL's autopsy, but I am a little startled that Orville Browning agreed to observe. He and Lincoln were good friends going way back to the Springfield years. I don't know how Browning was able to sit and watch his friend the president be sawed open and mutilated like that!

The only thing I know is that Dr. Leale declined an invitation to be present at the autopsy. He was a young physician of 23, and his experience through the night was probably all that he cared to endure. Why Lincoln’s friend Orville H. Browning was present and did not decline, I’ve no clue.

loetar44 · 09-08-2014, 02:54 PM

Has anybody read "Twenty Days" by Dorothy and Philip Kunhardt ? They describe how Dr. Charles A. Leale was the first on the scene, soon assisted by Dr. Charles S. Taft. Two other doctors arrived. So there were four doctors in the box at Ford's. The third one was of course Dr. Albert F. A. King. Was the fourth Charles D. Gatch ?????

Linda Anderson · 09-08-2014, 03:21 PM

Dr. Samuel A. Sabin wrote a letter to his wife on April 15 saying he went to the President's box after Lincoln was shot but that he did not go to the Petersen house because he did not want to be called as a witness.

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ight=sabin

RJNorton · 09-08-2014, 03:31 PM

In a footnote on p. 203 of his We Saw Lincoln Shot: One Hundred Eyewitness Accounts Tim Good writes, "Dr. Gatch's claim appears to be one of the easiest to refute. Both Dr. Leale's and Dr. Taft's accounts mention besides each other only Dr. King. Neither of their accounts, which were recorded within a few years of the assassination, mentions the presence of a a fourth surgeon."

In Dr. Leale's 1909 address he said, "While I was kneeling over the President on the floor Dr. Charles S. Taft and Dr. Albert F. A. King had come and offered to render any assistance. I expressed the desire to have the President taken, as soon as he had gained sufficient strength, to the nearest house on the opposite side of the street. I was asked by several if he could not be taken to the White House, but I responded that if that were attempted the President would die long before we reached there."

Leale does not mention any other doctors in the box.

In his article titled Lincoln's Doctors Fred Hatch does include Dr. Gatch as being in the box along with Leale, Taft, and King.

Reck does not specifically mention Gatch going into the box. According to him the next person to enter the box after the three doctors was William Kent, a government employee. Reck pretty much has King and Kent entering at the same time.

Oliver C. Gatch, who was sitting with his brother, gave this erroneous account in 1909:

"In less than a minute after the shot was fired some one called to me to bring a doctor. I answered that my brother was a surgeon, and a man literally dragged us into the box where the wounded President sat, unconscious, his head fallen on his breast. On entering, we found Miss Harris and Major Rathbone opening Lincoln's collar and examining his breast in an effort to locate the wound. My brother introduced himself as a physician and made haste to find the wound. He raised the President's head to a more erect position, and in so doing his index finger on the left hand came in contact with a jagged hole in the back of Mr. Lincoln's head near the left ear, from which the brain was oozing. Turning to Major Rathbone, my brother said, 'Here is the wound and it is fatal.'

While my brother and I laid the President on the floor and held a handkerchief over the wound, Major Rathbone sent a messenger for Surgeon-General Barnes. No one seemed to know just what to do. Major Rathbone was suffering from his wound and nearly prostrated by the awful calamity. Miss Keene, who had hastened to the box, was with Miss Harris occupied in ministering to poor, distracted Mrs. Lincoln.

It seemed, for a few moments, as if we were all paralyzed. Then my brother broke the silence in our little group around the dying President, so sharply contrasted with the tumult all about us, by calling Major Rathbone's attention to the fact that while Mr. Lincoln was in a critical condition to be moved, he ought, if possible, to be got to a private house, or some more fitting place, for the end that was so imminent. Accordingly, we two — my brother and I — with the aid of a couple of others, raised the President from the floor and carried him through the passage-way, down the stairs, and out of the theater. There was silence as we passed. No one spoke. As we moved slowly across the street, the only sound that was heard above the sobbing of the people was the hoof-beats of cavalry already approaching to guard the street."

Linda Anderson · 09-08-2014, 03:40 PM

I haven't found any corroborating evidence yet that Dr. Sabin was present in Lincoln's box but it would be a pretty strange thing for him to write to his wife the next day saying that he was there. He may have hung back and not offered any assistance so Dr. Leale didn't either see him or, if he did, didn't bother to mention him.

loetar44 · 09-08-2014, 05:58 PM

(09-08-2014 03:31 PM)RJNorton Wrote: In a footnote on p. 203 of his We Saw Lincoln Shot: One Hundred Eyewitness Accounts Tim Good writes, "Dr. Gatch's claim appears to be one of the easiest to refute. Both Dr. Leale's and Dr. Taft's accounts mention besides each other only Dr. King. Neither of their accounts, which were recorded within a few years of the assassination, mentions the presence of a a fourth surgeon."

In Dr. Leale's 1909 address he said, "While I was kneeling over the President on the floor Dr. Charles S. Taft and Dr. Albert F. A. King had come and offered to render any assistance. I expressed the desire to have the President taken, as soon as he had gained sufficient strength, to the nearest house on the opposite side of the street. I was asked by several if he could not be taken to the White House, but I responded that if that were attempted the President would die long before we reached there."

Leale does not mention any other doctors in the box.

In his article titled Lincoln's Doctors Fred Hatch does include Dr. Gatch as being in the box along with Leale, Taft, and King.

Reck does not specifically mention Gatch going into the box. According to him the next person to enter the box after the three doctors was William Kent, a government employee. Reck pretty much has King and Kent entering at the same time.

Oliver C. Gatch, who was sitting with his brother, gave this erroneous account in 1909:

"In less than a minute after the shot was fired some one called to me to bring a doctor. I answered that my brother was a surgeon, and a man literally dragged us into the box where the wounded President sat, unconscious, his head fallen on his breast. On entering, we found Miss Harris and Major Rathbone opening Lincoln's collar and examining his breast in an effort to locate the wound. My brother introduced himself as a physician and made haste to find the wound. He raised the President's head to a more erect position, and in so doing his index finger on the left hand came in contact with a jagged hole in the back of Mr. Lincoln's head near the left ear, from which the brain was oozing. Turning to Major Rathbone, my brother said, 'Here is the wound and it is fatal.'

While my brother and I laid the President on the floor and held a handkerchief over the wound, Major Rathbone sent a messenger for Surgeon-General Barnes. No one seemed to know just what to do. Major Rathbone was suffering from his wound and nearly prostrated by the awful calamity. Miss Keene, who had hastened to the box, was with Miss Harris occupied in ministering to poor, distracted Mrs. Lincoln.

It seemed, for a few moments, as if we were all paralyzed. Then my brother broke the silence in our little group around the dying President, so sharply contrasted with the tumult all about us, by calling Major Rathbone's attention to the fact that while Mr. Lincoln was in a critical condition to be moved, he ought, if possible, to be got to a private house, or some more fitting place, for the end that was so imminent. Accordingly, we two — my brother and I — with the aid of a couple of others, raised the President from the floor and carried him through the passage-way, down the stairs, and out of the theater. There was silence as we passed. No one spoke. As we moved slowly across the street, the only sound that was heard above the sobbing of the people was the hoof-beats of cavalry already approaching to guard the street."

I think Oliver Gatch wanted his 15 minutes of fame in 1909. He did not make the headlines in 1865 with this story. However, I do believe that he and his brother Dr. Charles were certainly at Ford's and they witnessed the murder, but they were nothing more than bystanders and played no active role. If Charles was in the box (it was very hectic there at the moment shortly after AL was shot) he was unseen. Oliver is not the first man in history to make himself or others important by telling tales.... Just my opinion.

RJNorton · 09-08-2014, 06:09 PM

I agree with you, Kees.

On p. 24 of Tim Good's book the author mentions a 1908 account given by Dr. Gatch himself. I tried to find the text of this statement on the Internet but so far have not succeeded.

Jim Garrett · 09-08-2014, 09:08 PM

So the death room received the moniker, "the Rubber Room". So is the Presidential box "the Rubber Box"? Four doctor's, Abe, Mary Todd, Clara, Henry, Ferguson, Gourlay, Keene, Kent, and a host of others. The only only I doubt was there would be Ferguson.

I did track down Stone at Rock Creek. He's near the entrance, not far from George McGovern. The Stone home was at the Northeast corner of F and 14th, just a short walk from Ford's. The Beau Arts building is still there. The Stone home would have been a more worthwhile building to have saved.

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 05:42 AM by loetar44.)

I found a very interesting article about the Gatch brothers and their presence in the state box here:

http://www.carboncountymagazine.com/Carb...lbert.html

a "must read" !

It still leaves me with one question that "keeps me awake". You can read here:

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/...hpt12.html

"Leale directed the efforts of two other physicians, one an Army contract surgeon, Charles Taft. Taft joined him in the President's box, attempting to revive the victim by pumping his arms up and down, clearing his throat, and blowing into his mouth." Who was the other physician. I suppose het was Dr. King as is said in all accounts. But where is Dr. Gatch as he was in the box BEFORE Taft arrived ????

Nice remark Jim! "Rubber Box" !!!

And Linda I too haven't found any corroborating evidence for Dr. Sabin ..... Read at GenForum that a certain Bea Daggett has a picture of Dr. Sabin and maybe more info. I'm trying to contact here by email, so far still no response.

Gene C · 09-09-2014, 06:47 AM

Great article from the Carbon County newspaper Kees.

I found the comments about Dr. Taft's diary intriguing. Does anyone know anything about that?

RJNorton · 09-09-2014, 06:48 AM

IMO, because of the timing, Dr. Sabin's account is more believable than Dr. Gatch's. Dr. Sabin wrote his account on the day Lincoln died, and (unless I am missing a statement somewhere) Dr. Gatch's account didn't come until 40+ years later.

L Verge · 09-09-2014, 09:11 AM

http://www.carboncountymagazine.com/Carb...lbert.html

That article is very contrived, IMO. I worried about it from the first when I read that Mr. Lincoln sat between the two ladies; and when the play was credited to a Frenchman, I really gulped. Poor Tom Taylor would be very disappointed.

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 11:38 AM by loetar44.)

(09-09-2014 09:11 AM)L Verge Wrote: http://www.carboncountymagazine.com/Carb...lbert.html

That article is very contrived, IMO. I worried about it from the first when I read that Mr. Lincoln sat between the two ladies; and when the play was credited to a Frenchman, I really gulped. Poor Tom Taylor would be very disappointed.

I agree.

The whole article is full of “free interpretations”, written by someone who was not good informed about the assassination history we all know: no mention of Dr. Leale, Dr. Charles Gatch held AL’s head, John Wilkes Booth reached Bowling Green , Mary threw herself across President Lincoln at the moment he died, etc., etc. No, Joan Gilbert “did not her homework”, as we say in Holland when somebody write about a subject and is ill prepared. But that was not why I recommended this article.

Joan Gilbert copied from the "Mauch Chunk Democrat" an article written in 1907 in which was said that Capt. Oliver Gatch saw the assassin jump from the state box after the fatal shot, that he and his brother Dr. Gatch were in the box and helped carry Lincoln to the Petersen house. That combined with what Roger wrote about the 1909 account of Oliver Gatch proves one important thing: Oliver Gatch told different stories! Some examples:

1907: the president's guard came over, whispered that the president had been shot and asked Oliver Gatch to accompany him …. and after arriving in the box: Major Rathbone, asked Oliver Gatch if he knew of a nearby surgeon, whereupon Oliver volunteered his brother's services.
1909: In less than a minute after the shot calls came for a surgeon. Oliver answered that his brother was a surgeon, and a man literally dragged Oliver and Dr. Charles into the box

1907: When Dr. Charles Gatch saw Lincoln's injuries, he knew they were fatal. He did nothing, but suggested to Major Rathbone that the president be moved from the theater.
1909: Dr. Charles Gatch gave Lincoln the first medical treatment and together with Oliver he laid the President on the floor and held a handkerchief over the wound….. then he suggested to move Lincoln from the theater.

1907: Just as Oliver and Dr. Charles, Rathbone and a guard were about to carry Lincoln down the stairs, Dr. Charles Taft entered the box.
1909: Oliver Gatch and Dr. Charles Gatch with the aid of a couple of others, raised the President from the floor and carried him through the passage-way, down the stairs, and out of the theater. Dr. Taft is not mentioned ….

Conclusion: the story changes. This means in the first place that Oliver is making themselves important, or put in simple words: he is lying. Regardless of the type of inconsistency, changing a story (even a bit) is always a sign that shows that a person is not telling the truth, certainly as something completely new is added, or something is removed what previously was mentioned, or if the sequence of actions changes. That’s why I found this eyewitness account” from Oliver Gatch important, because it proves (IMO beyond any doubt) the Gatch brothers were there, but only as bystanders and thus (I said it before) in a minor role. The Gatch story as told by Oliver is at least greatly exaggerated.