Lincoln's views on his mother's ancestry

[Sally]

Yesterday, on C-Span’s American History TV, I saw a lecture given by author Stephen Mansfield, who wrote “Lincoln’s Battle With God.” His lecture (and, presumably, his book) outlined the various phases of Lincoln’s religious beliefs. He talked about how Lincoln was deeply ashamed of his mother’s illegitimacy and that during his atheistic phase he referred to her as a “bastard”. Mansfield also stated that Lincoln believed his remarkable intelligence and insight had come to him from his mother, who had inherited them from her Virginian aristocrat father. Thus, he was “cursed by Job” and all his intellectual gifts were shadowed by sin and shame. According to Mansfield, these stories of Lincoln’s feelings about his mother had been related by William Herndon.

I’d never heard this before. Have other Lincoln scholars or biographers come across convincing evidence of Lincoln’s true feelings about his mother’s birth, or are Mansfield’s claims based solely on Billy Herndon’s memoirs?

[Gene C]

This book is commented under "Books - A New Book on Lincolns' Faith"

I didn't care much for the book. He borrows a lot from Herndon.

[RJNorton]

(10-06-2013 02:26 PM)Sally Wrote:  Mansfield also stated that Lincoln believed his remarkable intelligence and insight had come to him from his mother, who had inherited them from her Virginian aristocrat father.

Hi Sally. William Herndon wrote:

"On the subject of his ancestry and origin I only remember one time when Mr. Lincoln ever referred to it. It was about 1850, when he and I were driving in his one-horse buggy to the court in Menard county, Illinois. The suit we were going to try was one in which we were likely, either directly or collaterally, to touch upon the subject of hereditary traits. During the ride he spoke, for the first time in my hearing, of his mother, dwelling on her characteristics, and mentioning or enumerating what qualities he inherited from her. He said, among other things, that she was the illegitimate daughter of Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter; and he argued that from this last source came his power of analysis, his logic, his mental activity, his ambition, and all the qualities that distinguished him from the other members and descendants of the Hanks family. His theory in discussing the matter of hereditary traits had been, that, for certain reasons, illegitimate children are oftentimes sturdier and brighter than those born in lawful wedlock; and in his case, he believed that his better nature and finer qualities came from this broad-minded, unknown Virginian. The revelation - painful as it was - called up the recollection of his mother, and, as the buggy jolted over the road, he added ruefully, 'God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her,' and immediately lapsed into silence."

Personally, I do not know of any other source, other than Herndon, where Lincoln is quoted as saying these things. I would think Mansfield is relying totally on Herndon unless someone knows of another source. Offhand, I cannot think of one.

[LincolnMan]

Agree with the others-the book is based on Herndon. Not aware, either, of other sources.

[Liz Rosenthal]

We'll never know what AL really said to Herndon on the subject. This is all a paraphrase of Herndon's that he recalled many years after the fact. But AL must have attributed his intelligence to his mother's side of the family, regardless of what he thought of his mother's "legitimacy," given the near-contempt he had for his father. His feelings about his father are a rare example of AL's emotions overtaking his logic. He couldn't always be Spock.

(10-06-2013 03:25 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(10-06-2013 02:26 PM)Sally Wrote:  Mansfield also stated that Lincoln believed his remarkable intelligence and insight had come to him from his mother, who had inherited them from her Virginian aristocrat father.

Hi Sally. William Herndon wrote:

"On the subject of his ancestry and origin I only remember one time when Mr. Lincoln ever referred to it. It was about 1850, when he and I were driving in his one-horse buggy to the court in Menard county, Illinois. The suit we were going to try was one in which we were likely, either directly or collaterally, to touch upon the subject of hereditary traits. During the ride he spoke, for the first time in my hearing, of his mother, dwelling on her characteristics, and mentioning or enumerating what qualities he inherited from her. He said, among other things, that she was the illegitimate daughter of Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter; and he argued that from this last source came his power of analysis, his logic, his mental activity, his ambition, and all the qualities that distinguished him from the other members and descendants of the Hanks family. His theory in discussing the matter of hereditary traits had been, that, for certain reasons, illegitimate children are oftentimes sturdier and brighter than those born in lawful wedlock; and in his case, he believed that his better nature and finer qualities came from this broad-minded, unknown Virginian. The revelation - painful as it was - called up the recollection of his mother, and, as the buggy jolted over the road, he added ruefully, 'God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her,' and immediately lapsed into silence."

Personally, I do not know of any other source, other than Herndon, where Lincoln is quoted as saying these things. I would think Mansfield is relying totally on Herndon unless someone knows of another source. Offhand, I cannot think of one.

[Donna McCreary]

"All that I am I owe to my angel mother." -- I think this quote from Lincoln sums up his opinion about this mother better than any other.

[Vicky Reany Paulson]

(10-12-2013 06:25 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I should probably keep my nose out of this, since I'm not in possession of any facts about it whatsoever, but it strikes me as out-of-character that Lincoln would refer to any child, particularly his own mother, as "illegitimate". I think he had brains enough to realize that there is no such thing as an illegitimate child, only illegitimate parents.

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Lincoln said bastard, not illegitimate. At least this is what Herndon wrote, and is requited in Herndon's Informants, book by Rodney Davis. Both terms mean the same.

[LincolnMan]

Is it established fact that Lincoln's mother was born out of wedlock?

[RJNorton]

Bill, I don't work with genealogy, but I think Louis A. Warren argued that she was legitimate. I think the majority of scholars have accepted Lincoln's (i.e. Herndon's) version that she wasn't. But I don't think that the absolute "100% for certain" answer is known.

[LincolnMan]

That's who it was! I thought there was a scholar who had claimed that her parents were married. I wonder what Warren found? A marriage certificate? A church record? Something else?

[Gene C]

According to Lincoln's Youth by Louis Warren, Nancy parent's were Lucy Shipley and James Hanks. They were married in North Carolina. The father died and Lucy and her daughter Nancy moved to KY. In KY, Lucy married her second husband, Henry Sparrow. This is on page 6-7 of the book mentioned. A footnote on p.217 indicated "No record of the marriage of James Hanks and Lucy Shipley has been discovered but the Shipley family traditions support the fact that they were married and Nancy was the child of this union". (I'm about 1/3 through on reading this book, and it is very good)

[LincolnMan]

Thanks Gene. So now we know what Warren's assertion was based on.

[L Verge]

Ed Steers has done quite a bit of work on the Lincoln genealogy, I believe. Can we nudge him to chime in?

[Vicky Reany Paulson]

(05-07-2014 01:45 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Is it established fact that Lincoln's mother was born out of wedlock?

There isn't a Shipley line. All the men she listed had different, documented wives. She was not an orphan. Abraham Hanks was married to Lucy Jennings, and also has many documents. There were 2 other Abraham Hanks, one already dead, the second 74 years of age. There are a number of family members confirming she was the daughter of Lucy Hanks, father unknown, including Lincoln himself.

---

Ah, the James Hanks thing. Joseph and Anne Lee Hanks had no son by the name of James Hanks. His brother William did. So how could Lucy Hanks, who was the daughter of Joseph and Anne Lee Hanks marry her brother? She did not marry the James Hanks, son of William, either. He is well documented, at Hat Creek, and was not married to a Lucy! She was served indictment papers, for fornication. Did they do this to widows, absolutely not! Were the Berry family her guardians? No, she worked there, as a seamstress, and was friends of Polly Berry, married to Richard Berry Jr., who signed papers she was of age to marry, and posted the bond, which was returned, when the marriage took place. Thomas Lincoln worked there too. At 23 years of age, no one needs a guardian. Richard Berry senior was already dead. Rachel Head Berry's brother, Jesse Head, was their minister. The Berry family owned a high end furniture business.

[Ed Steers]

(05-08-2014 07:57 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Ed Steers has done quite a bit of work on the Lincoln genealogy, I believe. Can we nudge him to chime in?

In as much as there are no references given for the many statements being made it is difficult to know where the information is coming from. Louis Warren is the man who spent a lifetime on this question. Paul Verdune followed up on the question concluding Nancy was born of Lucy in Tidewater, VA. I then followed Paul's work with research of my own and concluded that Nancy was born in Hampshire County, VA (now WV) near Mike's Run (New Creek). The weight of evidence in my opinion supports Warren's claim that Lucy was the widow of James Hanks and her father took her to Hampshire when she was several months pregnant. The fornication charge had nothing to do with Lucy and Nancy. It was filed long after Nancy was born and refrred to Lucy living with Henry Sparrow out of wedlock (as many on the frontier did). The two soon married and the charge was nulled. As to the Berrys, Richard Berry does sign as Nancy's guardian. That Nancy was raised by the Berrys is certainly true and not as an indentured servant or even as a servant. I wrote a lengthy article for the Lincoln Herald summarizing all of the data on both sides attempting to put everything in a single article. The preponderance of evidence supports Warren in my opinion. He was dismissed by most academics, unfortunately, without refuting any of his data. Before anyone makes a positive judgement on this matter it would be well to read the totality of evidence. My article is: "Nancy Hanks, West Virginian?" Lincoln Herald, vol. 100, no. 2 (Summer 1998), pp. 61-81. Ed Steers