Baptist Alley and preservation

[BettyO]

Joe - as far as I know it was dirt. The old cobbles may have been there, but don't really know; but I would think dirt since the main road was dirt. The cobbles seem to show up in the photo in Oldroyd's book I believe. In that case, then the cobbles were put down perhaps from 1870-1900....

But I believe it was dirt -

[Jim Garrett]

(02-13-2013 09:36 PM)Jim Page Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 08:34 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Be careful, Mr. Garrett, you look somewhat like the vagrants that used to panhandle near the restaurant years ago.

Hey, Jim! Laurie may have the explanation as to why folks kept handing us spare change that day!!!

--Jim

Well.....the change did pay for the egg rolls.

[RJNorton]

(02-13-2013 07:38 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Likewise, the rats in the alley behind Surratt's are also direct descendants. :0

Here's where the rats live:

[BettyO]

Notice the noose to the far right of the top of the photo!!!

[RJNorton]

Eerie!

[Jim Garrett]

(02-14-2013 05:55 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 07:38 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Likewise, the rats in the alley behind Surratt's are also direct descendants. :0

Here's where the rats live:

They're better fed now too.

[RJNorton]

(02-14-2013 06:11 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  They're better fed now too.

The fact that the descendants are still living there is due to the failure of Nora Fitzpatrick's cat. Nora would let the cat out the back to get the rats, but the cat missed catching the majority of them.

[LincolnMan]

(02-14-2013 05:55 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 07:38 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Likewise, the rats in the alley behind Surratt's are also direct descendants. :0

Here's where the rats live:

The noose is rather spooky, indeed!

[asobbingfilm]

Laurie, I want you to know that if I do win the Powerball lottery and manage to purchase 541 H and open Marry Surratts BnB I'm having as my first guests you and Betty O. There after dark we will consume canned oysters, brandy, and cigars as we play high stakes poker and hatch some sort of new plot (looking for ideas here as to just what plot).

[mgambuzza]

(02-13-2013 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Mike and I have already exchanged e-mails on his dream, and I'm afraid that I was pessimistic also. First of all, there has been a great deal of money spent on revitalizing Chinatown ever since the big Verizon Center arena went in down the street. That has driven up the real estate costs tremendously. And, with the wide push for cultural diversity now, there would be a definite fight to preserve the Oriental flavor (sorry, bad pun) of the building since it is surrounded by similar buildings and restaurants.

An investor would have a very difficult running the maze of D.C. government, which exists at the whim of the U.S. government. The acquisition process and permits alone would be a killer, IMO.

Finally, you would need the blessing of the NPS and the Interior Department to get it even on the National Registry of Historic Places. Surratt House has been on the Registry since 1976. However, twice in the past twenty years, we have tried to climb the ladder to be declared a National Landmark. Both times, we have been rejected with words that mainly said that Ford's Theatre and the Petersen House are all that are needed to remind people of the horrible assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

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I forgot to add that it will take very deep pockets to maintain a museum without a broad-based support system. If privately run, it would require a hefty endowment of millions of dollars - and museums that are properly run do not touch their endowments; they operate off the interest that the endowments provide as well as grants and donations.

Frankly, I would not work for a museum that did not have a tax-based government organization behind it to pay salaries, maintenance, phone bills, electric bills, HVAC bills, security, real estate taxes, and the like.

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Note to David - I almost screamed the day I walked out the back door of Ford's and found my beloved cobblestones were gone, along with the smell of an alley. Call me stupid, but the decay of Baptist Alley was part of the charm of the story. When you walked up those cobblestone pathways and smelled the filth, it gave you a great sense of what the alley was like in 1865. You know there had to be tobacco spittle and human waste out that back door in a time when cleanliness was not necessarily next to godliness.

History is not always just the printed word - it needs to play on the senses also. That's when the human element really kicks in and brings past events to light.

I also have to relate one story about the alley. About ten years ago, I was the last one out the stage door on a Surratt Booth Tour. I exited to see our group standing around the narrator, and out of the corner of my eye, I see four young "gentlemen" of the neighborhood conducting some kind of transaction off to the side. As we continued to talk to the group, these men started walking towards us. My school teacher instincts stepped in, and I quietly moved so that I was between the men and the group. Believe it or not, these four started listening to the narrator, and as the group walked up the alley, the young men started asking me questions. I answered as nicely as I could while slowly walking toward the group. At one point, I knew the group would make a left-hand turn, and I would be left alone in that alley with my new students. I finally excused myself and hustled to catch up. However, I truly felt like we had made a slight dent in those guys' tough exterior that day. I have often hoped that they did a little more educating of themselves on the story of Mr. Lincoln and his murder.

Laurie

I couldn't agree with you more about leaving the alley (I love old alleys!) the way it was. You know, in our current society, many of us are in denial about our history and also about what it is to be human in some respects. For example, I discussed the opposition to preservation of 541H street as glorifying negative and dark periods in American history. Well, that was the history and you can't change it, might as well learn from it.

I visited the Peterson house again after many years and was also disturbed to find that the bloody pillow previously covered in a plexicase cover was no longer there. I guess this was an attempt to "sterilize" the true horror of the assassination. Sometimes I think we are turning into what I've heard teremd the cupcake generation. Like you alluded to in your comment, 1865 DC was a rough and tumble place. It smelled and was dirty, people drank, visited brothels, fought, and killed. That was the reality. Now take away someones Starbucks coffee and cell phone and they won't know what to do! Good times!


BTW: I also visited the new museum at Ford's and I thought they cleaned it up to and changed the focus away from the assassination and focused more on Lincolns's good works. It still is very good and I support the theater as it is near and dear to my heart. I couldn't find the old door to the box though!

Best,

Mike

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(02-13-2013 05:07 PM)asobbingfilm Wrote:  True everyone has their price but you are overlooking the fact that that is their family business and IMHO $3million for purchase, relocation and restoration is probably very low considering the real estate and labor markets in DC. I would think the restoration alone might be 3-4 million (to really do it right). You are going to have to purchase the building AND relocate them as that is their cash cow. The Wok and Roll is a very hot spot in Chinatown, try getting a table during the lunch rush. Where would you move them? Spaces in DC are at a premium if you can find them. I would love to see them sell out but as you say if it can be done for 3 million, it probably would have already happened. Laurie Verge and others might have some thoughts on this so stay tuned to the thread. My guess is you are talking 10 million minimum with a capital M in minimum. A true historical restoration might present current bld code issues too, but Im no expert on that subject.

I haven't eaten at Wok and Roll but the place a couple of doors down has some excellent spicy chicken with peanuts!

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(02-13-2013 08:00 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Nothing better than two middle-aged Jim's wandering around Chinatown slurping egg drop soup!

Jim are you a descendant of the historic Garretts of Port Royal vicinity?

Mike

[Dave Taylor]

Out of the many places involved with the assassination, the Surratt boardinghouse is one of the places I worry about the least. The building is in good shape and is a thriving business. If someone wins the lottery, I would rather they buy up Rich Hill or the Peyton House and restore those.

[BettyO]

If I win, I'd LOVE to buy Rich Hill, Dave -- plus it has acreage - IF I bought 541 H Street - it'd only be because Lew Powell stayed there!

I'd much rather have Rich Hill out in the country -

[asobbingfilm]

Dave I'd have to stick with buying 541 H as Im a city guy at heart, but I understand that RH and Peyton are more in need.

[mgambuzza]

(02-13-2013 09:42 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  Welcome, Mike. There's a lot of knowledge and fun here. I hope you enjoy it.

I can't imagine the cobblestones were original to 1865, were they? The old photos look like it was a dirt alley, like 10th. St. was. Does anyone know?

I never suggested that they were there in 1865 but you have to admit the cobblestones are much more in keeping with the old vs the black top.

[Laurie Verge]

Joan Chaconas (my D.C. history expert) and I discussed this alley question. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason as to what streets were "cared for" and which ones were left as dirt until after the Civil War. However, both of us are taking an educated guess that the cobblestones may well have been there - and we are basing this solely on the fact that the alley led to the back of a theater where props, lumber, etc. had to delivered; and adjacent was the back of an undertaking establishment where corpses and coffins were taken. It seems logical that sturdier pavement would be needed for heavier loads (not just horses), especially in the rainy season.

I believe there is a book about the alleys of Washington, but I don't know if it goes into their paving history. I really should read that book because I have always been interested in the stories of the alley dwellers. Some of the alleys have great names, like Louse Alley, Tin Cup Alley, Marble Alley, and Fighting Alley. Several of the 73 brothels of D.C. during the Civil War were listed as being in some of these alleys. In fact, one in Fighting Alley was owned by Margaret HANKS. She employed six "inmates," but the Provost Marshal's Office listed it as low class in their 1864-65 report.