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RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 09-30-2023 08:32 PM
Quote:But Lincoln was able to convince Mary to permit Robert to serve admirably on General Grant's staff and that experience launched Robert into success for the rest of his life.
I have no idea how you describe serving "admirably" on Grant's staff when Robert had only arrived in February 1865 and the war ended on April 9, just a few weeks later. He had no time to do anything "admirably." The main highlight of his time was witnessing the surrender of Lee, which he obviously had nothing to do with.
Your comment that serving on Grant's staff "launched Robert into success for the rest of his life" is, to put it kindly, incorrect. If anything launched him into success, it was his own ability, coupled with being Abraham Lincoln's son. Doors that otherwise wouldn't have been open to him were because of who his father was. Although I've never seen any evidence that Robert actively sought these advantages, he certainly didn't reject them once offered.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - David Lockmiller - 09-30-2023 10:00 PM
(09-30-2023 08:32 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:Quote:But Lincoln was able to convince Mary to permit Robert to serve admirably on General Grant's staff and that experience launched Robert into success for the rest of his life.
I have no idea how you describe serving "admirably" on Grant's staff when Robert had only arrived in February 1865 and the war ended on April 9, just a few weeks later. He had no time to do anything "admirably." The main highlight of his time was witnessing the surrender of Lee, which he obviously had nothing to do with.
Your comment that serving on Grant's staff "launched Robert into success for the rest of his life" is, to put it kindly, incorrect.
Best
Rob
Professor Burlingame wrote:
"On February 11, [1865], Robert entered the army as a captain and served creditably on Grant's staff until he resigned five months later."
(Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Volume Two, page 738.)
Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote:
So Robert's wish to join the army was granted. Stationed as Grant's headquarters, Robert "soon became exceedingly popular," Horace Porter recalled. "He was always ready to perform his share of hard work, and never expected to be treated differently from any other officer on account of his being the son of the Chief Executive of the nation."
(Team of Rivals, page 684.)
Robert Lincoln recently had graduated from Harvard and his military service was the first work for which he was paid (I presume).
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 09-30-2023 10:46 PM
Serving "admirably" and "creditably" are merely matters of opinion. Although I am not suggesting that he didn't, to say he did without offering specific examples of how one came to that conclusion is meaningless.
Porter's comments are based on seeing Robert, and notice that he mentions how Robert "never expected to be treated differently from any other officer on account of his being the son of the Chief Executive of the nation." Why mention this? Because people who were grumbling about how long it took for him to get into uniform and where he was placed (on the staff of the commanding general while other soldiers didn't have that option) had to be answered. I have no clue how you relate being paid to being set on the road to success.
No doubt that RTL wanted to serve, but you place far too much on his service. It no more made him successful than Abraham's battle with the mosquitoes did during the Black Hawk War.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - David Lockmiller - 10-01-2023 10:51 AM
(09-30-2023 10:46 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: Serving "admirably" and "creditably" are merely matters of opinion.
Best
Rob
Serving "admirably" and "creditably" may also be considered to be matters of definition.
I use dictionary.com for definitions.
"admirable" adjective
- worthy of admiration; inspiring approval, reverence, or affection.
- excellent; first-rate.
Robert "soon became exceedingly popular," Horace Porter recalled. "He was always ready to perform his share of hard work, and never expected to be treated differently from any other officer on account of his being the son of the Chief Executive of the nation."
"creditable" adjective
bringing or deserving credit, honor, reputation, or esteem.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 10-01-2023 11:56 AM
Ok, so you know how to look up words online. Still doesn't prove anything.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - David Lockmiller - 10-01-2023 12:20 PM
(10-01-2023 11:56 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: Ok, so you know how to look up words online. Still doesn't prove anything.
Best
Rob
I connected a definition of the word "admirable" with known historical facts.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 10-01-2023 02:33 PM
Actually, what you did was take the opinion of one man who was writing in 1897 and who knew the audience he was writing for and combine it with your own subjective descriptor.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Gene C - 10-01-2023 02:56 PM
Rob, as one of the well read and articulate members on this forum, would you expand upon your answer of "Human" to the question on this thread,
"What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character?"
Most of the people I know are Human.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Juan Marrero - 10-01-2023 08:03 PM
Right after his reelection, Emily Dickinson, having witnessed a celebration of the victory, wrote a letter to her sister containing the line: "The Drums keep on for the still Man..."[Letter 297]. As one would expect from ED, the adjective "still" is very insightful. Lincoln seems never to have acted rashly on an important matter. And he knew the importance of inaction to reach a greater goal.
When Lincoln said, "I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky'" he tacitly recognized the need to be "still" lest the border States join the rebellion. He never pounced, he waited.
In him "still" means rational calculation.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - RJNorton - 10-01-2023 08:22 PM
(10-01-2023 08:03 PM)Juan Marrero Wrote: When Lincoln said, "I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky'" he tacitly recognized the need to be "still" lest the border States join the rebellion. He never pounced, he waited.
I have always been interested in this quote. However, from what I can tell, this saying is simply "attributed" to Lincoln or "reportedly said" by Lincoln. I have not seen a specific letter, speech, etc. where it can be shown with 100% certainty that Lincoln said those words. I have researched this quote in all my "authentic quote" sources and drawn a blank. I cannot point to any primary sources, but some Lincoln books simply say things like, "Lincoln reportedly said......" (fill in Juan's quote).
The closest I can come to an actual quote with a source is as follows:
"I think to lose Kentucky is nearly the same as to lose the whole game. Kentucky gone, we can not hold Missouri, nor, as I think, Maryland. These all against us, and the job on our hands is too large for us."
--From a September 22, 1861, Abraham Lincoln letter to Orville Browning.
As far as I can tell the actual truth on whether or not Lincoln said those words is "lost to history." If anyone knows an authentic source, please post. Many thanks.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 10-01-2023 08:54 PM
(10-01-2023 02:56 PM)Gene C Wrote: Rob, as one of the well read and articulate members on this forum, would you expand upon your answer of "Human" to the question on this thread,
"What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character?"
Most of the people I know are Human.
Gene,
I would be glad to.
Growing up, I was always told that I should emulate Lincoln. That meant (as far as I knew at that young age) to be honest and try to do right by my fellow man. The only problem is that I could never get a handle on just who Lincoln was. He was too much of the marble saint. In the early 1970s, the city of Springfield referred to the Lincoln sites as the Lincoln shrines. I couldn't see him as a person, which, in my mind, would make emulation far more possible. As I began to study and read about Lincoln, it seemed to me that there was no middle ground where he was concerned. He was either a saint who could do no wrong or a sinner who did nothing right.
When I was in college, I took a special topics course on the life of Lincoln. Held like a seminar where each person took a topic and wrote a paper on it. I was given the topic of Lincoln and his cabinet. One of the quotes I remember from Burton Hendrick's book Lincoln's War Cabinet (which I honestly think is better than Team of Rivals; sorry, David) was Lincoln talking about the "shriek of locality" when he was selecting his cabinet. He was quoted as saying, "If the Lord was selecting the twelve apostles again, the shriek of locality would go up!" (or words to that effect). At the time, I still held a smidgen of religious feeling and thought it interesting that Lincoln could make such a statement.
As I began to study Lincoln more as an adult instead of a wide-eyed kid, I realized the "sanctified" Lincoln was just as false as what Lerone Bennett or Edgar Lee Masters had tried to make of him. To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties. David's whole raison d'etre seems to me to keep the sanctified Lincoln alive. That only inhibits knowledge and respect for Lincoln. It's often said that to understand the good in life, we must have experience with the bad. The same holds for Lincoln. It's OK to look at him with a deep respect, but that respect has to be tempered with the fact that he was not perfect, or even close to perfect. He was human.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - David Lockmiller - 10-02-2023 11:32 AM
(10-01-2023 08:54 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:(10-01-2023 02:56 PM)Gene C Wrote: Rob, as one of the well read and articulate members on this forum, would you expand upon your answer of "Human" to the question on this thread,
"What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character?"
Most of the people I know are Human.
Gene,
I would be glad to.
Growing up, I was always told that I should emulate Lincoln. That meant (as far as I knew at that young age) to be honest and try to do right by my fellow man. The only problem is that I could never get a handle on just who Lincoln was. He was too much of the marble saint. In the early 1970s, the city of Springfield referred to the Lincoln sites as the Lincoln shrines. I couldn't see him as a person, which, in my mind, would make emulation far more possible. As I began to study and read about Lincoln, it seemed to me that there was no middle ground where he was concerned. He was either a saint who could do no wrong or a sinner who did nothing right.
When I was in college, I took a special topics course on the life of Lincoln. Held like a seminar where each person took a topic and wrote a paper on it. I was given the topic of Lincoln and his cabinet. One of the quotes I remember from Burton Hendrick's book Lincoln's War Cabinet (which I honestly think is better than Team of Rivals; sorry, David) was Lincoln talking about the "shriek of locality" when he was selecting his cabinet. He was quoted as saying, "If the Lord was selecting the twelve apostles again, the shriek of locality would go up!" (or words to that effect). At the time, I still held a smidgen of religious feeling and thought it interesting that Lincoln could make such a statement.
As I began to study Lincoln more as an adult instead of a wide-eyed kid, I realized the "sanctified" Lincoln was just as false as what Lerone Bennett or Edgar Lee Masters had tried to make of him. To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties. David's whole raison d'etre seems to me to keep the sanctified Lincoln alive. That only inhibits knowledge and respect for Lincoln. It's often said that to understand the good in life, we must have experience with the bad. The same holds for Lincoln. It's OK to look at him with a deep respect, but that respect has to be tempered with the fact that he was not perfect, or even close to perfect. He was human.
Best
Rob
Rob, as a youth, you were set an absolutely impossible task: "Growing up, I was always told that I should emulate Lincoln."
Tolstoy spoke of President Abraham Lincoln in 1908:
“We are still too near to his greatness, but after a few centuries more our posterity will find him considerably bigger than we do. His genius is still too strong and too powerful for the common understanding; just as the sun is too hot when its light beams directly on us.” (Doris Kearns Goodwin’s source in Team of Rivals: Leo Tolstoy, quoted in The World, New York, February 7, 1908.)
"Emulate" is defined at dictionary.com: effort or desire to equal or excel others.
Hundreds of millions human beings have lived and died since 1908. How many of those can be considered as comparable in laudable accomplishment to that of President Abraham Lincoln? Who in prior history accomplished so much good under such adverse circumstances? In his time, President Abraham Lincoln saved the institution of democracy for the world.
You wrote in your post: "To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties."
I will disagree with that statement to the end of time.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 10-02-2023 12:18 PM
Quote:You wrote in your post: "To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties."
I will disagree with that statement to the end of time.
And you will never have more than a child-like understanding of Lincoln.
Best
Rob
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - David Lockmiller - 10-02-2023 12:31 PM
(10-02-2023 12:18 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:Quote:You wrote in your post: "To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties."
I will disagree with that statement to the end of time.
And you will never have more than a child-like understanding of Lincoln.
Best
Rob
In your opinion, do Doris Kearns Goodwin and Professor Michael Burlingame each "have more than a child-like understanding of Lincoln?" Those are the two Lincoln historians that I quote most often, I believe.
RE: What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character? - Rob Wick - 10-02-2023 12:34 PM
Of course, they do, but they also do not accept the "Lincoln as saint" picture that you do. The Lincoln they write about is a more rounded figure than the caricature you present.
Best
Rob