+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Could John Have Spared Mary (/thread-444.html)
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - L Verge - 10-28-2012 07:02 PM
It appears that most have had their say on my question, so here's what I believe. I think that both mother and son would have been hanged. If the Commission stuck to its procedure of giving the death sentence to those who were doing Booth's bidding right up to the moment of the assassination, they would have to have pronounced the death sentence for Mary based on the evidence they had. The only glitch in my answer would be if the clemency plea had been granted after the verdict.
As for John, he was their one solid link to the Confederate government - either the real one in Richmond or the tricky one in Canada. I believe that Come Retribution places him in Judah Benjamin's office in Richmond in February of 1865. He had also been in the employ of the enemy in the eyes of the U.S. since about 1862. When he went on the road for them in earnest and quit his job at Adams Express, he signed over his portion of the Surratt property to his mother, knowing that, if he were caught in sympathy with the Confederacy, their lands would be confiscated.
All of the above spells TREASON to me and is punishable by death. Wasn't that the first thing that the U.S. tried him for when he was caught? The statute of limitations had run out, however. In 1865, it was still a hanging offense. Therefore, I vote death for both. And may the ghosts of Surratt House forgive me...
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - JMadonna - 10-28-2012 10:47 PM
I wish John Surratt would have put his manuscript into a "Time Capsule" rather than destroying it. I would have loved to hear all he did during the war.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - BettyO - 10-29-2012 07:22 AM
I agree, Laurie --
Inasmuch as the conspirators were charged with treason - yes, the sentence is death - still is today Constitutionally. No getting around that....
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Jim Garrett - 10-29-2012 03:33 PM
(10-28-2012 07:02 PM)L Verge Wrote: It appears that most have had their say on my question, so here's what I believe. I think that both mother and son would have been hanged. If the Commission stuck to its procedure of giving the death sentence to those who were doing Booth's bidding right up to the moment of the assassination, they would have to have pronounced the death sentence for Mary based on the evidence they had. The only glitch in my answer would be if the clemency plea had been granted after the verdict.
As for John, he was their one solid link to the Confederate government - either the real one in Richmond or the tricky one in Canada. I believe that Come Retribution places him in Judah Benjamin's office in Richmond in February of 1865. He had also been in the employ of the enemy in the eyes of the U.S. since about 1862. When he went on the road for them in earnest and quit his job at Adams Express, he signed over his portion of the Surratt property to his mother, knowing that, if he were caught in sympathy with the Confederacy, their lands would be confiscated.
All of the above spells TREASON to me and is punishable by death. Wasn't that the first thing that the U.S. tried him for when he was caught? The statute of limitations had run out, however. In 1865, it was still a hanging offense. Therefore, I vote death for both. And may the ghosts of Surratt House forgive me...
Agreed Laurie. John Surratt was in an awful fix. To come back would not have gotten his mother off the hook. It could only get him hung and possibly be a source of evidence against the Confederacy.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Gene C - 10-29-2012 03:44 PM
I don't know if it would have been possible, but he could have tried to broker a deal through the Canadian gov't to surrender
in return for the release of his mother.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - L Verge - 10-29-2012 06:17 PM
I bet that the U.S. would have wanted George Sanders, Jacob Thompson, and the other "old boys" who hung out with them brokered in the deal for John-John also. That would have been a lot of heavy artillery in exchange for one previously unknown woman.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Gene C - 10-30-2012 04:16 PM
(10-28-2012 10:47 PM)JMadonna Wrote: I wish John Surratt would have put his manuscript into a "Time Capsule" rather than destroying it. I would have loved to hear all he did during the war.
You might enjoy this book.....(I have not read it yet)
"The Private Journal and Diary of John H Surratt, the Conspirator"
http://www.archive.org/stream/privatejournaldi00surr#page/n5/mode/2up
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Thomas Thorne - 10-30-2012 04:30 PM
The "Private Journal and Diary" is a most disappointing work. It ties John Surratt,who its depicts as much older than he actually was, to historical events such as the Baltimore Plot and the Draft Riots in which Booth and co. played no role. The writer lacked the imagination to create conspiracies and events that were not already known to the public.
Tom
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Gene C - 10-30-2012 05:02 PM
What?
You mean it's not true? How disappointing 
Let's keep it a secret and not tell Jerrod and see if he notices 
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - BettyO - 10-30-2012 05:42 PM
Tom is right -- this book on John Surratt is a badly written old "yellow backed" novel; a "penny dreadful" - no truth in it whatsoever! The author, Dion Haco, was a prolific hack novel writer in the Victorian era who wrote another book on JWB as well.
LOVE the cover -- John Surratt looks more like Kaiser Wilhelm sans the pickelhaube!
![[Image: privatediaryofjohnsurra.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/privatediaryofjohnsurra.jpg/)
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - L Verge - 10-30-2012 06:19 PM
Dion Haco, Esq. has fooled a lot of people over the years. I recently had a "discussion" with a gentleman who was convinced that it was a true account.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - RJNorton - 10-31-2012 02:04 PM
Here is an entry from July 8th:
"July 8, 1865.—They have hung my mother. Curse them! in every way curse them. She was no party to the mad freaks of Booth! She has been murdered by Johnson, but I will be even with them yet. After my sister pleading as she did for her mother's life, and yet they have hung her. Payne and Harold; well they were in the plot; but then that cowardly fellow, Atzerodt, Johnson ought to have pardoned him, if even only because he was too cowardly to attempt to kill him. But they are all hung, and the rest have been sent to the Dry Tortugas. But, my mother! Curse them! curse them all!"
Laurie, the next time the gentleman comes in ask him how John knew the group had been sent to the Dry Tortugas as early as July 8th.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Laurie Verge - 10-31-2012 03:09 PM
Excellent point, Roger! Mudd and the others did not leave D.C. for a few days, and their original destination was to be the federal penitentiary in Albany, NY, until Stanton decided that a military prison in an isolated location like Fort Jefferson was preferable.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - bosox044 - 11-19-2012 05:01 PM
I believe Mary would have received a shorter sentence, John was the guy they wanted, but since he refused to turn himself in they pinned his sins on Mary. I have been a supporter of Mary from the beginning. I believe she knew something was going on when the kidnapping was planned, but didn't know exactly. She knew John was up to no good, but wouldn't turn in her own son. That is the only thing i believe Mary was guilty of, protecting her son from possible hanging. I believe most of the testimony was perjured by Weichmann and Lloyd to save their own neck.
RE: Could John Have Spared Mary - Jim Page - 11-19-2012 06:07 PM
Interesting discussion! Laurie's mention of General Harris' book, The Assassination of Lincoln, spurred me to download it from the Internet Archives website and attempt to read it.
Unfortunately, the book is written in the turgid style so popular in its time and I just can't force myself to do more than scan through it. Based on that, though, I have to believe that John Surratt would also have been hung had he been arrested at the time of the other conspirators. He was regarded, at least by General Harris, as the number two man in Booth's efforts and would no doubt have been dealt with accordingly.
--Jim