The Spur Question - Printable Version

The Spur Question - Printable Version

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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
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RE: The Spur Question - J. Beckert - 02-23-2018 08:36 PM

(02-23-2018 09:16 AM)L Verge Wrote: When it comes to the bitter end for results from the higher-ups, I usually don't.

That may be so, My Little Rebel Pal, but your contributions here have earned you the respect and admiration of everyone who has a serious interest in this subject. You've brought a wealth of knowledge to these studies.

You're ruthless pursuit of trivia answers be damned.....

RE: The Spur Question - Gene C - 02-24-2018 05:32 AM

Ditto!

RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-24-2018 05:33 AM

Many thanks to Steve for sending these old newspaper accounts.

Steve writes, "In a recent conversation the subject of Pvt. Jacob Soles carrying Lincoln's body from the theater to the Peterson House. I found these newspaper interviews given by him in 1915, 1933, and 1935 that I thought should be posted to the forum. Note in his 1933 interview he claims an actress was flirting on center stage when Lincoln was shot, not Harry Hawk. Also in his 1915 account, Soles claimed that Booth's spur got caught in the flag draping the box during his escape but twenty years later in his 1935 account he claims that is a myth and there was no flag covering the President's box. He also claimed in his 1933 account that Lincoln spoke as they were moving him. Needless to say, I do not believe Soles' accounts at all.

So far, the only soldier's account of being at Lincoln's box and then travelling with the body to Peterson House which I can find any kind of independent contemporary corroboration is that of Capt. Edwin Bedee of the 12th New Hampshire Infantry. (May 1866 note by Edwin Stanton in War Department Commissions Branch correspondence - B462)."

[Image: soles1.jpg]

RE: The Spur Question - L Verge - 02-24-2018 10:51 AM

I noticed that the third account has Lincoln shot at 8:45 (vs. 10:15). It also has the wounded President falling forward and laying on the balustrade of the box, and the kicker to me is that Soles claims that they carried the President out of the rear door of Ford's Theatre (into Baptist Alley?). Don't you love first-person accounts?

(02-24-2018 05:32 AM)Gene C Wrote: Ditto!

Joe and Gene - Thank you so much for the kind comments.

RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-24-2018 01:54 PM

As for carrying the President to the Petersen House, I think the names I have seen most often in books and articles are Jacob Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, and William Sample. Yet, according to Tim Good, Soles is the only one of the four men to make this claim. And this claim didn't come until the 20th century and is obviously very unreliable as Steve's articles show. It's pretty clear we simply do not know all of the men who carried the President across the street. The doctors were certainly involved, but the names of the persons who assisted them remain a mystery to this day IMO.

RE: The Spur Question - Steve - 02-24-2018 03:31 PM

The references for the three articles above that Roger posted for me are, in the order he posted them:

1. The Pittsburgh Press 12 Feb. 1933 pg. 12

2. Bradford Evening Star and the Bradford Daily Record (PA) 12 Feb. 1935 pg. 1 (yes, both names are listed at the top for some reason)

3. The Pittsburgh Press 11 Oct. 1915 pg. 4

Getting back to Roger's point about the other three men in his unit not mentioning carrying Lincoln with Soles. A genealogist transcribed a copy of Jabez Griffith's (called "Jacob" by Soles) obituary in the 18 Jan. 1898 edition of the McKeesport Daily News and posted it online:

Capt. Jabez Griffiths died at 2:15 o'clock this morning at the family residence, 313 Penny avenue, aged 52 years.

He had been ailing for the past six months. Last fall he spent eight days at the South Side hospital, Pittsburgh, where an operation was to have been performed, but upon investigation it was considered unwise and the patient returned home. Since then he has been confined to his home a great sufferer and his condition gradually becoming worse.

This morning the doctor held an autopsy and ascertained that Capt. Griffiths' death was cuased by a cancer.

Captain Griffiths spend his whole life in this vicinty, living for many years at Camden. He was a riverman all his life and was well known in Louisville, Cincinnati and in most of the river towns. He was a member of the Masters' and Pilots' association of Pittsburgh and of Allegheny Lodge No. 375. F & A Masons and Vigilant circle, No. 141, Protected Home Circle. He is survived by a wife, one sone, John S. and four daughters, Sadie, (Mrs. William Menke, of Homestead), Laura, Minnie and Mabel.

Funeral services will be held at the First M. E. church, Thursday afternoon at 2:30 o'clock. Rev. Eaton and hatch officiating. The interment will be in Richland cemetery, Dravosburg. Friends and relatives are respectfully invited to attend the funeral.

Unfortunately, issues of the McKeesport Daily News aren't in the newspaper databases that I use, so I couldn't look for the obituaries or articles about the other two men. But one would think that at least one of the three men would've told somebody else or leave some kind of record of their role in the Lincoln assassination, if it happened.

RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-26-2018 05:07 AM

Many thanks to Steve as he sent a couple more articles on Soles.

RE: The Spur Question - Steve - 02-26-2018 03:16 PM

The references for the two article above, in the order Roger posted them are:

1. The Scranton Republican 11 Feb. 1933 pg. 2

2. The Pittsburgh Press 12 Feb. 1928 pg. 4

RE: The Spur Question - Julianna - 02-03-2022 02:04 PM

Having read this thread in full, and finding it very helpful, I would like to pose a second question related to the spurs.

I have come across the claim that the spurs (or, given what's been discussed here, at least one pair OF the spurs, if there were multiple) Booth was wearing the night of April 14th were a pair Junius had given to Edwin for his first night on the stage, which Edwin had subsequently lent to Booth.

Has this been discussed and/or does anyone have any knowledge or evidence to add one way or the other?

My research/findings up to this point are below.
----
I know that the RJ Norton timeline cites Booth as putting on "new spurs" at 7:00 P.M.
https://rogerjnorton.com/Lincoln36.html

I found that in his biography, Edwin DID write that Junius lent him spurs for his first night onstage in his biography, though his account, unlike retellings that cite his biography, actually says his father demanded them back immediately after the performance. The retellings are often using the anecdote as an example of fatherly love, so they may be conveniently omitting the part where he asked for them back.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AEA7485.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

The published/public sources I have found supporting the Junius/Edwin spur theory are:

- Shakespeare Unlimited podcast series (2019), guest Nora Titone and author of My Thoughts Be Bloody: The Bitter Rivalry Between Edwin and John Wilkes Booth That Led to an American Tragedy, states:
"He was also wearing his father's spurs, costume pieces from Junius Brutus Booth's Richard III costume, actually."
https://www.folger.edu/shakespeare-unlimited/edwin-john-wilkes-booth

- This less-than-primary source "John Wilkes Booth Facts and Trivia" says: "The spurs John Wilkes Booth was wearing when he assassinated Lincoln were the same ones Junius Brutus Booth had lent to Edwin Booth for Edwin’s first stage appearance as an actor."
https://ironbrigader.com/2010/06/16/john-wilkes-booth-facts-and-trivia/
It gives the general following sources, which I don't currently have access to, but does not point to which one for the specific citation:
--American Brutus: John Wilkes Booth and the Lincoln Conspiracies by Michael W. Kauffman
--American Gothic: The Story of America’s Legendary Theatrical Family-Junius, Edwin, and John Wilkes Booth by Gene Smith

--John Wilkes Booth: A Sister’s Memoir by Asia Booth Clarke

--Right or Wrong, God Judge Me: The Writings of John Wilkes Booth Edited by John Rhodehamel and Louise Taper

It seems rather plausible to me that this was a made-up extension of the original anecdote about Junius lending Edwin his spurs. Or it could be true!

Edwin's acting debut was 1849, meaning the spurs were well over 15 years old at the time of the assassination, if they'd been brand-new when Edwin lent them to him. If anyone can speak to the lifespan of 19th century spurs, that might shed some light.

RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-04-2022 03:33 PM

(02-03-2022 02:04 PM)Julianna Wrote: I know that the RJ Norton timeline cites Booth as putting on "new spurs" at 7:00 P.M.
https://rogerjnorton.com/Lincoln36.html

- This less-than-primary source "John Wilkes Booth Facts and Trivia"

Julianna, your comment above also applies to many pages in my website. The page you cited was written almost 25 years ago. I was writing as an 8th grade social studies teacher, not a historian. I was simply trying to put something together to aid kids with their studies. I did not use footnotes or endnotes, and I often simply included things I had read previously. I have no memory of where I read that information on "new spurs;" I can only say I would have read it somewhere in a source written prior to 1997 or 1998. Over the past few years my attention has been mostly to family, and I haven't touched (or updated) the vast majority of the pages for awhile.

RE: The Spur Question - JMadonna - 03-04-2024 07:30 PM

FWIW, I don't believe Booth wore a spur at Ford's theater that night for the following reasons:
1. The theater was a place where one dressed to the nines. A spur was 'working wear'. It would have been as out of place as coveralls. Booth would never have made a fashion faux pau that would draw attention to himself.
2. Booth needed to get out of the theater fast - a spur is not easy to keep on while running. It would have slowed him down.
3. Booth had enough time that afternoon to choreograph his leap. If I HAD to make a 12' jump you can be sure I would be looking for something to break my fall. Grabbing flag on my way down only makes sense.
4. In the search of Atzerodt's room was Booth's coat which contained a number of things he could have used during his escape - including a spur. I think Herold was to meet up with Booth after his escape with the coat. Instead he got it locked in Atzerodt's room.

RE: The Spur Question - J. Beckert - 03-05-2024 01:29 PM

I think the best description of Booth's attire that night came from Joseph Hazelton. He also expressed shock at seeing Booth arrive wearing "heavy riding boots, spurs, a blue flannel shirt and an Army slouch hat" after having seen him earlier in the day "dressed in the height of fashion". He also wondered "what he was doing there on such a gala night dressed in such a garb".

Another report states he wore "an ordinary black business suit".

A spur was recovered from the stage and an engraving of it was posted in the papers along with Booth's hat. A small "semi-circular indentation" was found at the spot where the carpet was ripped by Booth's fall - suggesting it was made by the spur.

Another report stated that on the night of the assassination, the Treasury Guards flag was not on a staff, but displayed opened, beneath the box, displaying "it's large hand painted eagle". I don't see how grabbing a flag that was at best tacked on would assist Booth is slowing his descent.

April 14th was a cool and rainy night. Booth knew he was going to touch off a powder keg and once he got done, he'd be riding hard. He said himself he'd planned only for success. I think he was ready and dressed for riding, the weather and his usual attention to fashion would have been a hindrance.

RE: The Spur Question - AussieMick - 03-06-2024 01:01 AM

(03-05-2024 01:29 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I don't see how grabbing a flag that was at best tacked on would assist Booth is slowing his descent.

I think most of us would agree that descent wouldnt be greatly slowed. But I suggest that Booth was desperate for anything that would make a tiny difference. There might even have been an element of 'performance' in making a more elegant leap.

RE: The Spur Question - JMadonna - 03-07-2024 09:42 PM

(03-05-2024 01:29 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I don't see how grabbing a flag that was at best tacked on would assist Booth is slowing his descent.

The spur theory states that Booth's spur made a hole in the flag as he jumped, tearing the flag. This means that the flag had to be secured by more than 'tacks'. To create a tear, the flag had to offer resistance to the spur otherwise it would have come down on contact and not created a tear. At most it would create only the original hole.

So the flag had to be more firmly secured than your 'at best' scenario otherwise neither the spur theory nor my 'grabbing the flag as he fell' theory would work.

RE: The Spur Question - J. Beckert - 03-07-2024 11:44 PM

Very true, but the damage to the flag looks to be minimal. No clue how securely it was fastened, but Booth only tore a small bit of it off. Reports have stated the a small part of it was pulled to the stage by his spur. I'm a proponent that it was not on a staff that night, but spread out displaying it's eagle. But hey - who knows....

https://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/ba583e1c02.jpg