+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? (/thread-941.html)
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - RJNorton - 05-30-2013 04:02 AM
John, there should be a way to post it. Do you have a file of it? If so, just send it to me via file attachment, and I can upload it to my server and post it here. If not, we'll find another way. Mills wrote his book in 1994 (before he read your article). I should have said "at that time" it was a legitimate question! Sorry, John!! Overall, though, I think I'll stand by my original opinion on Mills. He asks some questions (examples: he is critical of Mudd's defenders and of John F. Parker's defenders) which I think are legitimate.
Mills writes that Stanton felt Booth was going to kidnap, not kill Lincoln. Given this scenario, he feels Eckert's presence would have made a difference. Mills writes, "Eckert could have twisted Booth like a pretzel." He feels Eckert was even stronger than Lewis Powell, whom he feels might have been there, too, had it been a kidnap plot (as he says Stanton envisioned) that night. Obviously we can argue whether or not that would have happened, but that is Mills' scenario.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Laurie Verge - 05-30-2013 08:59 AM
IF John Stanton's article cannot be posted here, I will see that anyone who wants one will get a copy. We can duplicate them here at the museum and mail them through our mail room.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - John Stanton - 05-30-2013 10:31 AM
(05-30-2013 08:59 AM)Laurie Verge Wrote: IF John Stanton's article cannot be posted here, I will see that anyone who wants one will get a copy. We can duplicate them here at the museum and mail them through our mail room.
Laurie. Thank you for your cooperation. I would prefer if the distribution takes place as you describe. If the story is printed here, it automatically goes to Google and become "public domain" - like it or not. If sending it requires "permission", you have it. Some will already have the Courier, some will subscribe to the Courier, as a result of this mailing. But - anyone who wants it, will get it.
Plus, I am not a bit skilled at "Attachments".
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Laurie Verge - 05-30-2013 12:49 PM
No problem, John. Anyone wishing a copy of this article regarding Stanton's and Eckert's actions on the night of the assassination should just let me know via laurie.verge@pgparks.com. Don't forget to include your USPS address. This will be sent via regular mail, not e-mail.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - scldrgnfly - 05-30-2013 11:20 PM
Laurie and everyone what is going on with the Surratt House Museum website??? I thought you could get to the Courier Archives through the old one.
I was going to check if I could get to them on the site to read John's article and the excerpts to that book that is supposed to come out to see if I wouldn't need them mailed to me.
However, the link to the http://www.Surratt.org website either comes up blank or one of those generic sales/business sites comes up advertising all sorts of things...even the old picture of the Surratt House Museum on Wikipedia clicks to the weird generic site...which has none of the charm of the original, nor any of the information!
This cannot be! What's up?
This is crazy! I finally got to the old familiar website by going through the Google link to the Museum's educational outreach programs page and then hitting the homepage link at the bottom of the page.
Has someone stolen the names? It happens when I try to get to the Surratt Society links on various websites, too.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Laurie Verge - 05-31-2013 08:51 AM
You really don't want to get me started on the website issue, Martha! It has become a total mess, and I am sharpening my meat cleavers because heads are about to roll. I certainly hope that it gets straightened out asap 'cause it's not wise to get on Mama Verge's last nerve...
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Laurie Verge - 05-31-2013 12:50 PM
Back to the Why Didn't Eckert Accompany Lincoln question: Some of you have already requested copies of John Stanton's article and they are on their way to you. However, I also found this article from a previous newsletter that you might find interesting. The author is a former NPS Ranger and Curator at Ford's Theatre.
A FINAL THOUGHT ON THE ECKERT AS BODYGUARD ISSUE
by Frank Hebblethwaite
I feel compelled to make a last response to H. Donald Winkler concerning his reply to my questions about Thomas Eckert that appeared in the October edition of this newsletter:
In the second sentence of his article, Mr. Winkler states that, “…[E]vidence comes, in part, from the men who heard Lincoln’s request for Eckert and years later [my emphasis] reported it.” To be more precise, David Homer Bates, who was in the telegraph office on the night of the Lincoln assassination, published his reminiscences in his book, Lincoln in the Telegraph Office, in 1907 (42 years later). The recollections of William H. Crook, who apparently saw Lincoln shortly before he went to Ford’s Theatre and walked with him from the White House to the War Department Telegraph Office, appeared in an article entitled “Lincoln’s Last Day” in the September 1907 edition of Harper’s Weekly (also 42 years later).
There is the rub. If Bates and Crook did, indeed, witness Lincoln requesting that Thomas Eckert serve as his bodyguard at Ford’s Theatre, why did it take them 42 years to talk about it? I cannot help but wonder exactly how accurate their recollections were after 42 years.
As noted in Blood on the Moon by Edward Steers, Jr., “Crook’s reminiscence has become a favorite among storytellers. But there are several difficulties with the account, making it unlikely that it ever happened…” The Lincolns began their dinner a little late, just after 7 pm. At 7:30 pm, Lincoln met with Speaker Colfax. The only time Lincoln could have accompanied Crook to Stanton’s office was between the end of dinner and Lincoln’s 7:30 pm meeting with Colfax. In the interval between 7 pm and 7:30 pm, there was not enough time to eat dinner, visit with Stanton, and return to visit with Colfax. Most damaging to Crook’s veracity, however, is the finding of a statement by historian William Hanchett that quotes Stanton as saying that the last visit to his office by Lincoln was on the evening of Wednesday, April 12 – not April 14.
Hanchett points out that no mention is made before the year 1907 by Crook or anyone else of Lincoln’s visiting the War Department on the night of April 14, 1865. Since publication of Crook’s book, nearly every author has included the episode in writing about Lincoln’s last hours. Crook’s reminiscence cannot be accepted; and, while some of his observations are undoubtedly true, each must be scrutinized carefully before accepting them as an accurate part of the Lincoln assassination story.
In The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies, Dr. Hanchett put the recollections of David Homer Bates in context as follows: “The story about Stanton denying Lincoln the company of Eckert at Ford’s Theatre comes from the memoir of David H. Bates…whose memory of how Stanton had given an ‘implied order’ to Grant to change his plans had so impressed Eisenschiml, Eisenschiml admitted that Bates’s ‘charge,’ published forty-two years after the event, could have been the product of an old man’s imagination. But since Bates had admired Stanton and been a lifelong friend of Eckert, he considered it unlikely. The truth is that Bates made no ‘charge’ against Stanton. He stated that, upon hearing that the Lincolns were planning to attend the theater in company with General and Mrs. Grant, Stanton ‘made a vigorous protest’ against it on grounds of security…When [Lincoln] asked for the company of Eckert, Stanton refused, according to Bates, because he was ‘still unwilling to encourage the theater project,’ and Eckert ‘knowing Stanton’s views,’ declined for the same reason… Bates wondered if ‘the alert and vigorous Eckert’ might not have been able to save the president’s life if he had been in the box instead of Major Rathbone. He might have. But it must be remembered that Eckert was to have been a guest inside the box rather than a guard outside of it, a distinction Eisenschiml blurs by referring to Eckert as an escort for Lincoln and his ‘guests.’”
Allow me to point out one more detail in regard to the question of whether or not General Grant’s presence would have caused a military guard to provide more adequate protection for Lincoln at Ford’s Theatre. As reported in the Washington Star, President Lincoln attended a performance of Love in Livery at Ford’s Theatre on March 10, 1865, with both General Grant and General Burnside. Neither Grant nor Burnside had a military guard to protect them that night. No one guarded the presidential box, and at least two people walked into the box to give Lincoln messages. Since there was no military guard at Ford’s Theatre on March 10, there is nothing to indicate that a guard would have been assigned to General Grant on April 14. Hence, if Grant had attended Our American Cousin with Lincoln, Booth may have killed him as well. Then again, Grant may have subdued Booth. We will never know.
I am still left with the larger question: If Lincoln asked him to serve as his bodyguard at Ford’s Theatre, why didn’t Eckert ever write about it? For that matter, why didn’t Secretary of War Edwin Stanton mention it?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - John Stanton - 05-31-2013 06:14 PM
Isn't it interesting, how several people can read the same information, and then each draws different conclusions from the information they read. With that in mind, everything I say here has to be based on "IMO". Mr. Hebblethwait has his - Mr. Winkler has his - and I have mine - and each was offerd in good faith.
1. Line 2. "...Bates... was in the telegraph office on the night of the assassination." Comment: Who cares? All of the Eckert-Stanton-Lincoln exchange took place much earlier in the day - all before 4 PM.
2. Line 3. "...Crook...saw Lincoln shortly before Lincoln went to the thearter". Comment as above.
3. Line 6. "Bates and Crook...witnessed Lincoln's request for Eckert assistance." Comment: Crook was not there when the request was made.
4. Line 7. Why did they wait 42 years...? Comment: That's a rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyhow. Asking the question does not automatically make the information wrong. Bates was providing 1st Person information, normally that is accepted. BUT -did he keep a diary? Did he start writing immediately in1865, and it took 42 years to complete? etc. Who knows! But I accept what he wrote.
5. Line 9. Comment: Yes, Crooks reminisence should be ignored. He could not have known whether it ever happened, (Lincoln's request for Eckert.)
6. Line 13. Comment: Stanton flat-out Lied. Which was not something new to him. (Maybe the last visit to the teleggraph office was Wednesday NIGHT. Stanton was not in the telegraph office on Friday NIGHT. He was at home for a quiet evening with the family, but he was there up to 4 PM.)
7. Line15. Comment: We have already determined that Crook was not present for the Lincoln/Eckert conversation.
8. Comment: All this confusion is a result of Stanton's effort to keep his plan and his use of Eckert on April 14. a SECRET, from the President. Eckert was not aware of the type of work he would be doing for Stanton that night. So, when Stanton released him from his commitment to work, he went home. What was there for him to write about? (Even if it took 40 years to write.) Stanton, certainly was not about to brag about his devious action. He went to his grave with the details of his secret plan. I do not question what was said and done when Crook met with the President at 7 PM +/-. All interchange between Lincoln, Stanton and Eckert was completed before 4PM. How did Crook know about the interchange? Stanton didn't tell him. Maybe Lincoln mentioned it, and that part is not recorded.
I have read the same material that the others have read, so, I have omitted any cites for the sources. I would be pleased to cite the work if need be.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - KateH. - 06-01-2013 04:33 PM
This goes back a couple of pages (sorry) but one of the reasons Herold was probably having issues with his shoes was due to his high instep. The picture attached shows Herold's stocking foot (left) in comparison with Atzerodt's slipper (right). Like most people, Atzerodt's foot was relatively flat. Herold's foot appears to be scrunched up. However, it was just naturally high. Hence the term high instep. Herold probably had his shoes made specially to fit his feet comfortably. I'm not sure what type of shoes he was wearing when he departed Washington (riding boots?) but after almost twelve days on the run, they probably started to give out and, therefore, hurt him when he walked. Herold probably wanted to buy new, and more comfortable, shoes in Bowling Green in preparation for the remainder of his journey with Booth. Since Booth was barely hobbling on crutches, Herold needed to pull most of the weight. He already had blistered and bloody hands. He didn't need sore feet too.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Eva Elisabeth - 06-06-2013 12:13 PM
(05-30-2013 12:49 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: No problem, John. Anyone wishing a copy of this article regarding Stanton's and Eckert's actions on the night of the assassination should just let me know via laurie.verge@pgparks.com. Don't forget to include your USPS address. This will be sent via regular mail, not e-mail.
Would perhaps so. who got this article and is able and has time to scan it be so kind to email it to me? I would be deeply grateful, I'd so much like to read it.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - Laurie Verge - 06-06-2013 01:40 PM
(06-06-2013 12:13 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(05-30-2013 12:49 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: No problem, John. Anyone wishing a copy of this article regarding Stanton's and Eckert's actions on the night of the assassination should just let me know via laurie.verge@pgparks.com. Don't forget to include your USPS address. This will be sent via regular mail, not e-mail.
Would perhaps so. who got this article and is able and has time to scan it be so kind to email it to me? I would be deeply grateful, I'd so much like to read it.
Eva,
I send things via Air Mail overseas all the time from our gov't mail room. Send me your address at the above e-mail, and it will be on its way to you pronto. I ran off about ten copies when I first made the offer and still have about half of them left.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - scldrgnfly - 06-06-2013 09:36 PM
Kate, that is an impressive observation. Many times I have had to replace shoes because of my instep is also high. With all of the swamp water they would have mushed through, I would imagine Herolds shoes were losing shape and causing blisters, too, but with a high instep a good fit is so important.
Great eye!
Had Eckert and Lincoln developed a friendship? Is it possible that whatever Stanton had planned for Eckert, just simply ended up not happening?
Could Eckert, if he chose, since Stanton didn't need him in the end, go to Lincoln and offer to accompany him, or would that be out of order?
Did Eckert ever say what he did that evening instead?
Are these questions covered in John's article?
Also, John, how is your article coming about the "Reliance" and Custer? Will it be in a future Courier? The article about John L. Crismond was very interesting.
Have you seen the Mystic Seaport Research Collection Website? It may be a bit basic for you.
Also, I happened upon a book by Webb B. Garrison titled, "The Civil War...Curiosities...". How reliable is the information in it? I noticed he mentions quite a few ships and how "Prizes" and ransoms were taken and used. I also found an old book by James D. Horan, "Confederate Agent.". Is anyone familiar with this work?
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - RJNorton - 06-07-2013 04:33 AM
(06-06-2013 09:36 PM)scldrgnfly Wrote: Are these questions covered in John's article?
Hi Martha. Yes, John's article explains everything. I think Laurie still has some copies if you contact her.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - scldrgnfly - 06-07-2013 04:54 AM
Thanks, Roger. I am anxiously awaiting our mail! I know Laurie's sent it, but I think our postal service has slowed down a bit.
RE: Is there a list of the best Lincoln Assassination Consp. books for our library? - BettyO - 06-07-2013 05:26 AM
(06-01-2013 04:33 PM)KateH. Wrote: This goes back a couple of pages (sorry) but one of the reasons Herold was probably having issues with his shoes was due to his high instep. The picture attached shows Herold's stocking foot (left) in comparison with Atzerodt's slipper (right). Like most people, Atzerodt's foot was relatively flat. Herold's foot appears to be scrunched up. However, it was just naturally high. Hence the term high instep. Herold probably had his shoes made specially to fit his feet comfortably. I'm not sure what type of shoes he was wearing when he departed Washington (riding boots?) but after almost twelve days on the run, they probably started to give out and, therefore, hurt him when he walked. Herold probably wanted to buy new, and more comfortable, shoes in Bowling Green in preparation for the remainder of his journey with Booth. Since Booth was barely hobbling on crutches, Herold needed to pull most of the weight. He already had blistered and bloody hands. He didn't need sore feet too.
Kate - I agree! Davey had those high instep "Barbie Doll feet".....HA!
Which I myself have.... and yes, you have to have comfortable shoes and uncomfortable shoes can cause you misery. Davey would never had made a good marching soldier with feel like those. That said, he was looking for new shoes in Bowling Green....you are certainly correct!