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RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - antiquefinder - 01-29-2013 07:02 PM
(01-29-2013 05:55 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: AntiqueFinder said:
"I am certainly not implying that Mary was a terrible woman but simply put- she wasn't a nurturing wife. Mary had her own problems, and rightfully so with what she had endured. I feel Mary was the right person in Lincoln's life to give him that push in politics, but I feel she was not the best wife for him emotionally. We all need a safe place to turn to for nurturing when things are bad and I don't feel Mary was the one for that job. I could be wrong but this is how I personally feel."
How can we know that she wasn't a nurturing wife? The only people who would know for sure are Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln, their children and the very few people who worked or resided there over the years.
Herndon was "certain" that Lincoln was miserable in his marriage, but he bases his opinion on not very much evidence, other than Lincoln sometimes staying at the office until very late at night, and some stories Herndon had gathered from others about Mary's behavior amongst the neighbors. But Herndon was either never, or almost never, a guest in the Lincoln home, so he wouldn't have seen them interacting in a domestic setting. It's pretty clear that Herndon and Mrs. Lincoln simply didn't like each other, which probably led to how he approached interviewees about her and how he wrote about her. It's not enough to point to some incidents of public histrionics to draw conclusions about her private time with Abe and how much emotional support Mary may have provided.
(I think their time in the White House is a different story; the pressures they were both under - and in Mary's case, temptations - were like nothing either had experienced before.)
I will give you that we don't know 100% if Mary was a nurturing wife or not; however, the stories that were told from their neighbors and people who did witness Mary throwing stuff at Lincoln and having fits at Lincoln doesn't seem very nurturing to me. I'm not saying that Lincoln was an angel and didn't have his faults, but he certainly didn't deserve to be abused by his wife. And to be quite frank, if she did those things in public imagine what went on that people didn't see. I believe the both of them needed some serious counseling to get through their depression. And as far as Herndon goes, how do you know that Lincoln didn't talk to Herndon about his marriage? Just because he was never in the Lincoln home doesn't mean he didn't know what was going on. I've had people talk to me about their marital problems and I was never in there homes but I knew what was going on.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Craig Hipkins - 01-29-2013 09:00 PM
(01-29-2013 08:50 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Here is the definition of clinical depression from dictionary.com:
"a depression so severe as to be considered abnormal, either because of no obvious environmental causes, or because the reaction to unfortunate life circumstances is more intense or prolonged than would generally be expected."
Does anyone feel Lincoln's bouts with depression met this definition?
Roger, I would definitely say that "unfortunate life circumstances" would pertain to Lincoln. If you look at his early years (the years where the personality develops) he was subject to great personal loss with the death of his mother.
Craig
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Liz Rosenthal - 01-29-2013 09:25 PM
(01-29-2013 07:02 PM)antiquefinder Wrote: [quote='Liz Rosenthal' pid='12029' dateline='1359500126']
I will give you that we don't know 100% if Mary was a nurturing wife or not; however, the stories that were told from their neighbors and people who did witness Mary throwing stuff at Lincoln and having fits at Lincoln doesn't seem very nurturing to me. I'm not saying that Lincoln was an angel and didn't have his faults, but he certainly didn't deserve to be abused by his wife. And to be quite frank, if she did those things in public imagine what went on that people didn't see. I believe the both of them needed some serious counseling to get through their depression. And as far as Herndon goes, how do you know that Lincoln didn't talk to Herndon about his marriage? Just because he was never in the Lincoln home doesn't mean he didn't know what was going on. I've had people talk to me about their marital problems and I was never in there homes but I knew what was going on.
Lincoln probably did not talk to Herndon about his marriage because, if he had, Herndon would have reflected such conversations in his bio of Lincoln or in his correspondence or in the essays he wrote about Lincoln. But there is nothing to suggest in his Lincoln bio or in his published correspondence or essays that Lincoln ever confided in him about his marriage. Admittedly, as far as I know, the only published volume of Herndon's correspondence and essays remains The Hidden Lincoln (edited by Emanuel Hertz, in 1938!), and this collection is apparently far from comprehensive.
Then there is Lincoln's Herndon, the bio of Herndon written by David Herbert Donald 10 years after publication of Hertz's collection, which questions the accuracy of Herndon's secondhand information about the Lincolns' marriage. While I do think there are bones to pick with some of Donald's other statements about Herndon in this book - and even Donald's now anachronistic opinion about the importance of the Kansas-Nebraska Act to the spread of slavery - I think he makes sense here in pointing out that Herndon lacked firsthand knowledge of the Lincolns' marriage.
For the sake of argument, one could say that, just because none of Herndon's writings include any references to conversations with Lincoln about his relationship with Mary does not mean that such conversations did not happen. And I would respond that Herndon was one person who, bearing such knowledge, would not have held it back. He said and wrote time and again that his aim was to tell everything he knew about his former law partner. It didn't matter if it was disturbing, embarrassing, sensitive, or strange, Herndon's mission was to tell the world the "truth" about Lincoln. Given his 1866 lecture in which he argued that Ann Rutledge had been Lincoln's only true love (a very insensitive thing to say publicly given that Mary and her two surviving sons were still around to read of this!), I doubt he would have shied away from intimate facts about the Lincolns' marriage if he had had any.
But I totally agree that, if anyone deserved a loving, doting wife, it was Abraham Lincoln.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - RJNorton - 01-30-2013 05:25 AM
(01-29-2013 09:00 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: Roger, I would definitely say that "unfortunate life circumstances" would pertain to Lincoln. If you look at his early years (the years where the personality develops) he was subject to great personal loss with the death of his mother.
Craig
Hi Craig. I wonder how doctors define the word "prolonged." If Michael Burlingame is correct, the serious depressions of 1835 and 1841 both lifted after three weeks. Is that too short to be called "clinical depression?"
One thing that might help in an analysis would be the discovery of Lincoln's letter to Dr. Daniel Drake of Cincinnati. Apparently Lincoln wrote Dr. Drake seeking advice regarding depression, and Dr. Drake replied that he would need to see the patient before he could help. Both Lincoln's letter and Dr. Drake's reply have never surfaced.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - wsanto - 02-01-2013 11:09 AM
I am not a psychiatrist but I believe Lincoln had a melancholic personality type. This is a defined personality type that it characterized by introspection, intelligence,deep thought, an orderly manner (for Lincoln this is demonstrated in his organized thinking and writing and communicating), loyalty to family and friends and society, and a desire to avoid conflict and please others. Melancholics aren't overtly sad or depressed but can be confused as such. They typically have lower than normal seratonin levels. Seratonin is a neurotransmitter that is associated with mood and mood disorders. A lot of modern antidepressants work by increasing seratonin levels in the brain.
I believe that he also suffered from episodic Reactive Depression. Reactive Depression is an acute form of clinical depression that is directly related to a traumatic life event. It is a self-limiting process that resolves as the sufferer begins to learn to cope with the event. At times it is treated by clinicians when it is severe or prolonged (sorry Roger).
Unlike Major Depression, Reactive Depression it is not a chronic condition (although it may be recurrent). Melancholics, with their lower than normal seratonin levels, presumably, may be more prone to deeper and more severe bouts of Reactive Depression.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - RJNorton - 02-01-2013 01:03 PM
Thank you, Bill, for a wonderful post and analysis!
Here is a description from a fellow attorney. Would this fit your overall diagnosis for Lincoln?
---------------------------------------------
Jonathan Birch said of Lincoln in court, "His eyes would sparkle with fun, and when he had reached the point in his narrative which invariably evoked the laughter of the crowd, nobody's enjoyment was greater than his. An hour later he might be seen in the same place or in some law office near by, but, alas, how different! His chair, no longer in the center of the room, would be leaning back against the wall; his feet drawn up and resting on the front rounds so that his knees and chair were about on a level; his hat tipped slightly forward as if to shield his face; his eyes no longer sparkling with fun or merriment, but sad and downcast and his hands clasped around his knees. There, drawn up within himself as it were, he would sit, the very picture of dejection and gloom. Thus absorbed have I seen him sit for hours at a time defying the interruption of even his closest friends. No one ever thought of breaking the spell by speech; for by his moody silence and abstraction he had thrown about him a barrier so dense and impenetrable no one dared to break through. It was a strange picture and one I have never forgotten."
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Laurie Verge - 02-01-2013 01:51 PM
For some reason, this reminds me of a symptom of another problem (syndrome) that I once read about. The sufferer could change moods in the blink of an eye, and the silent time was almost catatonic?
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - wsanto - 02-01-2013 02:19 PM
(02-01-2013 01:03 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Thank you, Bill. Here is a description from a fellow attorney. Would this fit your overall diagnosis for Lincoln?
---------------------------------------------
Jonathan Birch said of Lincoln in court, "His eyes would sparkle with fun, and when he had reached the point in his narrative which invariably evoked the laughter of the crowd, nobody's enjoyment was greater than his. An hour later he might be seen in the same place or in some law office near by, but, alas, how different! His chair, no longer in the center of the room, would be leaning back against the wall; his feet drawn up and resting on the front rounds so that his knees and chair were about on a level; his hat tipped slightly forward as if to shield his face; his eyes no longer sparkling with fun or merriment, but sad and downcast and his hands clasped around his knees. There, drawn up within himself as it were, he would sit, the very picture of dejection and gloom. Thus absorbed have I seen him sit for hours at a time defying the interruption of even his closest friends. No one ever thought of breaking the spell by speech; for by his moody silence and abstraction he had thrown about him a barrier so dense and impenetrable no one dared to break through. It was a strange picture and one I have never forgotten."
Seems like a perfect example of someone confusing an introspective or introverted moment with sadness and gloom. Perhaps it was gloom, but it is just as likely he was organizing his thoughts on a particular matter or daydreaming in a very deep and dedicated sense or just epmtying his mind completely.
Melancholics are often very functional and driven and social as opposed to the clinically depressed who struggle to find the energy or the will to complete their tasks.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Liz Rosenthal - 02-01-2013 03:02 PM
(02-01-2013 02:19 PM)wsanto Wrote:(02-01-2013 01:03 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Thank you, Bill, for a wonderful post and analysis!
Here is a description from a fellow attorney. Would this fit your overall diagnosis for Lincoln?
---------------------------------------------
Jonathan Birch said of Lincoln in court, "His eyes would sparkle with fun, and when he had reached the point in his narrative which invariably evoked the laughter of the crowd, nobody's enjoyment was greater than his. An hour later he might be seen in the same place or in some law office near by, but, alas, how different! His chair, no longer in the center of the room, would be leaning back against the wall; his feet drawn up and resting on the front rounds so that his knees and chair were about on a level; his hat tipped slightly forward as if to shield his face; his eyes no longer sparkling with fun or merriment, but sad and downcast and his hands clasped around his knees. There, drawn up within himself as it were, he would sit, the very picture of dejection and gloom. Thus absorbed have I seen him sit for hours at a time defying the interruption of even his closest friends. No one ever thought of breaking the spell by speech; for by his moody silence and abstraction he had thrown about him a barrier so dense and impenetrable no one dared to break through. It was a strange picture and one I have never forgotten."
Seems like a perfect example of someone confusing an introspective or introverted moment with sadness and gloom. Perhaps it was gloom, but it is just as likely he was organizing his thoughts on a particular matter or daydreaming in a very deep and dedicated sense or just epmtying his mind completely.
Melancholics are often very functional and driven and social as opposed to the clinically depressed who struggle to find the energy or the will to complete their tasks.
I agree that, too often, Lincoln's contemporaries mistook introspection for sadness. (One wonders if introspection was a rarity out there on the plains in those days!)
But I must ask why introspection, intelligence and liking to get along with people are considered symptoms of melancholy. And is melancholy the same as non-clinical depression? Or are we really just describing clinical depression in a different way?
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - wsanto - 02-02-2013 08:17 AM
(02-01-2013 03:02 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: I agree that, too often, Lincoln's contemporaries mistook introspection for sadness. (One wonders if introspection was a rarity out there on the plains in those days!)
But I must ask why introspection, intelligence and liking to get along with people are considered symptoms of melancholy. And is melancholy the same as non-clinical depression? Or are we really just describing clinical depression in a different way?
It is easy to confuse melancholy (sadness) with a melancholy personality type.
A personality type is not considered a disease that has signs and symptoms. It is basically just a collection of traits, coping skills, and defense mechanisms that a person develops (probably with some genetic predisposition) and uses through life in order to function in society. A Google search of "melancholic personality type" will generate lists of a lot of these traits ascribed to melancholics. It is interesting that they don't really mention melancholy or sadness as a trait. They seem to be labeled as melancholics because some of their more introverted traits make them appear to be sad.
Clinical Depression is a disorder that can develop in any personality type. It is a state of true melancholy and deep sadness. Different personality types will express Clinical Depression differently based on their coping skills and defense mechanisms. Major Depression is a chronic form of Clinical Depression that typically requires treatment with medications that can rebalance the different neurotransmitters in the brain that deal with mood. Like hypertension it can be difficult to control and may be a lifelong disease.
Reactive Depression is an acute form of Clinical Depression that stems from a traumatic life event. Again, any personality type can suffer Reactive Depression and their coping skills will define how they express this sadness. A melancholic personality type might become more introspective and withdrawn. Reactive Depression is self limiting as the grief caused by the event typically subsides over time and the person's coping skills are able to finally deal with it.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - RJNorton - 02-02-2013 08:54 AM
Here's an article relating to this topic:
For Lincoln, ancient cure worse than his malady
Depression treated with mercury pills
By Jeremy Manier
Tribune staff reporter
July 17, 2001
Before Abraham Lincoln became president, his Illinois friends and colleagues noted that the lanky lawyer was prone to sudden mood swings and angry outbursts--one story claims he grabbed a bystander at a political debate, lifted him up by the collar and shook him violently.
Now researchers believe those flashes of temper may have been symptoms of mercury poisoning, brought on by a common remedy for depression.
A study published Tuesday gives a new perspective on a president revered for his calm and focused leadership through the historic crisis of the Civil War. That steady temperament appears to have emerged only after Lincoln stopped taking the pills that his law partner William H. Herndon described as "blue mass."
Several historians have recorded that Lincoln took the pills, which were as widely used in the 1800s as Prozac is today, said Dr. Norbert Hirschhorn, a New York medical historian and lead author of the study. But many Lincoln scholars appear not to appreciate the dangers blue mass posed.
Hirschhorn and researchers at the University of Minnesota used a common 19th Century formula for blue mass to re-create the concoction, which contained about 65 milligrams of elemental mercury per pill. They found that a typical regimen of two to three such pills each day would have exposed Lincoln to mercury levels nearly 9,000 times what current federal rules allow.
In addition to outbursts of rage, the researchers believe the mercury
Lincoln ingested may have caused insomnia, forgetfulness and possibly a hand tremor. One historical account suggests he quit the blue pill regimen about five months into his presidency because it "made him cross."
"He stopped taking this medicine at the most crucial time in our history, when we needed his saintliness the most," said Hirschhorn, whose study appears in the journal Perspectives in Biology and Medicine.
It may be impossible to prove Lincoln's mercury poisoning without a hair sample from the period when he took the pills, experts said. But historians said the diagnosis fits much of what is known about the former president's behavior.
"I think they make a compelling case," said Robert John, a professor of 19th Century history at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "We know so much about Lincoln--there's probably no American figure about whom more is written. To have what could be a fresh insight about him is remarkable."
Historians without backgrounds in medicine traditionally have not delved into the detailed clinical problems of figures such as Lincoln, said Thomas Schwartz, state historian with the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency.
Schwartz said although it's still unclear how much of Lincoln's behavior can be traced to mercury poisoning, it would make sense if he stopped the regimen because it kept him from thinking clearly.
"It's certainly an interesting hypothesis," Schwartz said. "It's something historians are going to be more mindful of."
Analyzing Lincoln's health
Lincoln's health has been more scrutinized in recent decades, as some scientists have sought to show that he inherited a genetic ailment called Marfan Syndrome, which can lead to a gaunt frame, slender fingers and internal bleeding.
The hypothesis that he also suffered from mercury poisoning puts him in a roster of historical figures who may have felt its effects, including President Andrew Jackson, physicist Isaac Newton and author Charlotte Bronte. Last year, a study of composer Ludwig van Beethoven's hair indicated that he had lead poisoning.
In Lincoln's case, the mercury poisoning may have been a side effect of medicine he took in his lifelong battle against depression. One of the worst early episodes of his "constitutional melancholy" began on Jan. 1, 1841, when an engagement to his future wife, Mary Todd, was broken off.
The incident sent Lincoln into a state that physicians of the time knew as hypochondriasis.
Many medical experts in the 1800s still believed that such mental conditions were linked to the ebb and flow of bodily fluids that the ancient Roman physician Galen had outlined. In that system, hypochondriasis stemmed from a buildup of black bile in the liver.
One of the most common treatments for the disorder called for stimulating the liver and getting black bile moving again through use of mercury pills--the so-called blue mass.
"It really was the Prozac-plus of the time, because they used it to treat a lot of conditions," Hirschhorn said. "They used it for anything they thought was related to the liver. But that was based on a faulty theory. It only poisoned you."
Mercury's effects can include decreased brain-wave activity, irritability, depression, memory loss and impaired kidney function.
There are no records showing when Lincoln started taking his blue pills, though many friends knew he used them. Ward H. Lamon, a bodyguard of Lincoln's, wrote that "blue pills were the medicinal remedy which he affected most."
Hirschhorn believes some of Lincoln's most unusual behavior linked to the blue pills came during the 1850s.
Wild, incoherent nonsense
One of Lincoln's fellow Illinois lawyers and traveling companions, Henry Clay Whitney, described awakening before daylight one morning to see Lincoln sitting up in bed and "talking the wildest and most incoherent nonsense to himself."
Another incident recounted by Lamon's daughter supposedly occurred during one of the famous 1858 Senate debates between Lincoln and Stephen Douglas.
In response to an accusation by Douglas about Lincoln's record in Congress, Lincoln furiously grabbed the collar of a former congressional colleague who, Lincoln said, knew the charge was false. While making his point, Lincoln shook the man "until his teeth chattered."
The effects of mercury on the brain can be reversed, and that was fortunate for Lincoln, Hirschhhorn said.
"He recognized that it wasn't doing him any good during his first months in the White House," Hirschhorn said. "I think that was a crucial decision. Who knows what would have happened if he had continued taking it?"
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - L Verge - 02-02-2013 03:18 PM
Boston Corbett's wild behavior is often attributed to his having worked in the hat making industry, which depended heavily on the use of mercury. The above hypothesis sounds very valid.
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Craig Hipkins - 02-02-2013 10:45 PM
I find it amazing that people lived for as long as they did back in Lincoln's day considering some of the things that they were exposed to. I believe that King George lll went mad after years of being treated with mercury for certain ailments.
Craig
RE: Lincoln Letter to John Stuart - Hess1865 - 02-04-2013 10:30 PM
Here's another scary use of mercury:
I always heard that Jefferson Davis was blind in one eye.
Several years ago I was taking a tour of the Confederate White House in Richmond. I mentioned to the tour guide Davis' blindness. She corrected me and told this story: it seems Davis caught some kind of eye infection while on vacation in Maine during the 1850's. Anyhow, as part of the treatment, every day his wife Varina filled an eyedropper up with a combination of MERCURY AND AMMONIA{!!!} and put it in his eye!!! The guide said Davis would have to lie down after as he would get a splitting headache!!! Talk about 1860's medicinal procedures!!
I even told my eye doctor the story, and he was amazed and shocked!!
BTW, if you ever get the chance, check out the Confederate Museum and the Confederate White House, which is right next door. Well worth visiting!!