Ladies and Gents,

Some of you have probably already read the book Lincoln's Melancholy by Joshua Wolf Shenk. If you haven't read it I highly recommend it. I have kept it on my desk, and have been reading certain parts of it again. The book gives excellent insight into Lincoln's state of mind before and during his Presidency.

One of the things that Shenk mentions in the book is a letter that Lincoln wrote to his law partner John Stuart in January of 1841. This was shortly after his supposed break-up with Mary Todd. He writes:

I am now the most miserable man living. If what I felt were distributed to the whole human family there would not be one happy face on the earth. I must die or be better it appears to me. I awfully forbode I shall not. The matter you speak of on my account you may attend to as you see fit, as I fear I shall be unable to attend to business. If I could be myself, I would rather stay here with Judge Logan. I can write no more.

Although I am no doctor, and not really qualified to give a diagnosis for what Shenk calls "Lincoln's Melancholy", I believe that Lincoln might have had suicidal thoughts. The fact that he did not kill himself, but went on with life and persevered leads me to conclude that these suicidal thoughts might have been a sort of "fantasy." He might have asked himself the question "what if I were to kill myself?" The fact that he says "I must die or be better it appears to me" leads me to this conclusion. Why would he mention the word "die?" Curious to hear what others have to say about this.

Craig

I think he was relating that he couldn't feel any worse and if he didn't die from his sorrow, he had to get better. He certainly was no stranger to hard knocks with the death of his mother, sister and sons. That alone shows he was capable of feeling great desperation, but always persevered.

(01-27-2013 06:01 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  I think he was relating that he couldn't feel any worse and if he didn't die from his sorrow, he had to get better. He certainly was no stranger to hard knocks with the death of his mother, sister and sons. That alone shows he was capable of feeling great desperation, but always persevered.

I agree with J.Beckert. It's just a reaction that we all go through when something negative happens. Sometimes we say we would rather die than face what is going on.

Great question, Craig. I am no doctor either, but I have felt that Lincoln developed an opinion that depression was a temporary, not permanent, condition. I agree with Joe and Gloria.

Lincoln wrote this beautiful letter of condolence to Fanny McCullough, the daughter of William McCullough who was the former clerk of the McClean County Circuit Court in Bloomington, Illinois. William McCullough knew Abraham Lincoln well. Fanny could remember when she was a child Lincoln would hold her and her sister Nanny on his knees. During the Civil War McCullough, a Black Hawk War veteran, enlisted in the Fourth Illinois Cavalry, and he was killed in a battle near Coffeeville, Mississippi, on December 5, 1862. Mutual friends of Lincoln and McCullough informed the president of Fanny's depression over her father's death. With the help of Lincoln's letter, Fanny eventually recovered, married, and lived until 1920.

Dear Fanny

It is with deep grief that I learn of the death of your kind and brave Father; and, especially, that it is affecting your young heart beyond what is common in such cases. In this sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares. The older have learned to ever expect it. I am anxious to afford some alleviation of your present distress. Perfect relief is not possible, except with time. You can not now realize that you will ever feel better. Is not this so? And yet it is a mistake. You are sure to be happy again. To know this, which is certainly true, will make you some less miserable now. I have had experience enough to know what I say; and you need only to believe it, to feel better at once. The memory of your dear Father, instead of an agony, will yet be a sad sweet feeling in your heart, of a purer and holier sort than you have known before.

Please present my kind regards to your afflicted mother.

Your sincere friend
A. Lincoln

Not only did Lincoln himself suffer from serious bouts of depression (especially in 1835 and 1841), but he also tried to give advice to others he knew were suffering. Lincoln's melancholy, whether it lasted for hours, days, weeks, or months always came to an end. Knowing this, he could encourage others. It would seem his own experience led him to believe that depression was not a permanent condition. I do not know if Lincoln's depression ever met the definition of "clinical depression."

I know that Shenk feels Lincoln once authored a "suicide poem." We discussed that possibility in another thread last summer.

I don't mean to be a Negative Nelly, but I was disappointed with Shenk's book. I don't think it told students of Lincoln anything they did not already know; at the same time, I think he overstated Lincoln's "melancholy." Certainly, Lincoln had those two very well-documented bad episodes, in '35 and '41, but in both cases there is no reason to believe that he didn't successfully get over them. However, Shenk argues that Lincoln was *always* depressed, and just developed techniques to function despite the depression.

The idea that Lincoln could have worked through what would have amounted to clinical depression sounds great, but as someone with clinical depression in my own family, it has always appeared to me that this sort of affliction - left untreated - saps energy and self-esteem and prevents people from functioning well in society or reaching their potential. Lincoln lived at a time when there was no treatment for depression, yet he was at least as high an achiever, with limitless stores of energy, as any great individual of history.

It's true that many people claimed, when they looked at Lincoln's face in repose, that he appeared miserable, but I really believe that they were mistaking introspection for despair. Let's not forget Herndon's observation of his law partner's capacity for deep thought.

That anyone else in Lincoln's place as president during the terrible Civil War wouldn't have suffered periods of profound sadness is unlikely - if such a hypothetical substitute president had any feelings at all.

And I find it interesting that, after Lincoln's bad spell in '41, he was not known to have suffered any other acute bouts of misery. Perhaps what he needed was a loving, devoted spouse... and he had that, before very long.

I agree that Lincoln needed a loving, devoted spouse to help end his bouts of misery.
Thinking about the letter he wrote to John Todd Stuart, let us entertain the idea that if the letter is indeed about Mary Todd, perhaps Lincoln chose his words very wisely to create a little drama. John Todd Stuart was not only Lincoln's law partner and Mary Lincoln's first cousin, he was one of Mary's favorite cousins. Stuart was also a bit of a 'blabber mouth.' His letters to family members are full of family information and gossip. He often visited his cousins in Springfield. After his death, Elizabeth Edwards wrote to her sister Emilie in Kentucky that John Todd Stuart had visited with the Edwards family nearly every day for over 40 years. That is an exaggeration as Stuart was often away on buisness or family matters. Still, the message is clear that the cousins visited often.
Upon reading the letter from Lincoln, perhaps Stuart trotted off to visit Mary and tell her that her beau was "the most miserable man alive." I seriously doubt he kept that information to himself.

Here is the definition of clinical depression from dictionary.com:

"a depression so severe as to be considered abnormal, either because of no obvious environmental causes, or because the reaction to unfortunate life circumstances is more intense or prolonged than would generally be expected."

Does anyone feel Lincoln's bouts with depression met this definition?

I think the key would be as to how long his depressions lasted. Clinical depression lasts a significantly long time. Even with medication, it takes days or weeks to feel any relief. I also think that many depressed people turn to alcohol for relief - which only makes it worse. Lincoln never showed a proclivity to drink - right?

I don't believe Lincoln was a drinker at all. But, he was taking pills for his "melancholy". I forget the exact name of the pill but it was blue something. He didn't stay on the medicine for long because of the side effects. Lincoln said it made his vision whacky. I personally think his wife Mary Todd added alot to his depression. IMO Mary Todd was not a very nurturing wife to Lincoln and that if she was, he would have felt much better. Unfortunately, back then they didn't have Oprah or Dr. Phil to listen and get help from. I think Lincoln relied on his friends more than Mary Todd. I think Lincoln would have also been around alot more if Mary Todd was kinder and more nuturing to him.

I realize that Mary Todd Lincoln has many detractors, and it's obvious that she wasn't exactly the most emotionally stable woman Lincoln could have married. But every time someone suggests that the Lincolns' marriage was a "hell on Earth," I am reminded that Lincoln had no documented bad episodes, like those he'd suffered in '35 and '41, after he got married. Also, I wouldn't minimize their emotional intimacy. If Lincoln did not have her to confide in, then he probably didn't have anyone to confide in (in the absence of Joshua Speed). His friends - a case in point being David Davis - generally agreed that he kept his deepest feelings a secret from them. As much as they enjoyed being around him, they didn't feel that he ever unburdened himself to them. One certainly has to wonder why Lincoln had to be away from home for such long periods while "on the circuit" when many of his colleagues went home on the weekends. But, as historians such as McPherson have acknowledged, if Lincoln hadn't been as absent from home as he was, and as familiar as he was to the people in all the towns he visited, he might not have been nearly as successful in politics as he was. 'By the 1850s, he was practically the most popular politician in the state, even though he hadn't held elective office in years. Perhaps Abe and Mary came to an agreement that he would spend these long periods from home to acquaint himself with the populace and thus further his political career. She apparently longed for his success even more than he did. Anyway, I think it's too easy to dismiss Mary as a terrible woman; her instability didn't necessarily have to translate into a bad home life. Volatile, maybe, but not necessarily bad.

(01-29-2013 12:34 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  Perhaps Abe and Mary came to an agreement that he would spend these long periods from home to acquaint himself with the populace and thus further his political career. She apparently longed for his success even more than he did.

I think she took great interest in his career and accomplishments. I cannot remember where I read it, but I read somewhere that she even kept a scrapbook of his speeches when he was away, especially during the Lincoln-Douglas Debates.

(01-29-2013 12:34 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I realize that Mary Todd Lincoln has many detractors, and it's obvious that she wasn't exactly the most emotionally stable woman Lincoln could have married. But every time someone suggests that the Lincolns' marriage was a "hell on Earth," I am reminded that Lincoln had no documented bad episodes, like those he'd suffered in '35 and '41, after he got married. Also, I wouldn't minimize their emotional intimacy. If Lincoln did not have her to confide in, then he probably didn't have anyone to confide in (in the absence of Joshua Speed). His friends - a case in point being David Davis - generally agreed that he kept his deepest feelings a secret from them. As much as they enjoyed being around him, they didn't feel that he ever unburdened himself to them. One certainly has to wonder why Lincoln had to be away from home for such long periods while "on the circuit" when many of his colleagues went home on the weekends. But, as historians such as McPherson have acknowledged, if Lincoln hadn't been as absent from home as he was, and as familiar as he was to the people in all the towns he visited, he might not have been nearly as successful in politics as he was. 'By the 1850s, he was practically the most popular politician in the state, even though he hadn't held elective office in years. Perhaps Abe and Mary came to an agreement that he would spend these long periods from home to acquaint himself with the populace and thus further his political career. She apparently longed for his success even more than he did. Anyway, I think it's too easy to dismiss Mary as a terrible woman; her instability didn't necessarily have to translate into a bad home life. Volatile, maybe, but not necessarily bad.

I am certainly not implying that Mary was a terrible woman but simply put- she wasn't a nurturing wife. Mary had her own problems, and rightfully so with what she had endured. I feel Mary was the right person in Lincoln's life to give him that push in politics, but I feel she was not the best wife for him emotionally. We all need a safe place to turn to for nurturing when things are bad and I don't feel Mary was the one for that job. I could be wrong but this is how I personally feel.

This may be a stupid question (please don't agree with me!), but how many women of Lincoln's time are known to have written about the marriage after having seen incidents "in person?" Mrs. Keckly is kind to Mary in general; we know Mrs. Genl. Ord and Mrs. Grant witnessed a bad side. However, is it chiefly men telling the "bad wife" stories? I think you see where I'm leading.

Julia Taft Bayne wrote about an incident involving Mrs. Lincoln in Bayne's book Tad Lincoln's Father. Julia was the half sister of Charles Sabin Taft who attended Lincoln after he was shot in Ford's Theater. She knew the Lincolns well as she and her younger brothers, Bud and Holly, were friends of the Lincoln boys.

Julia's mother had a hat made by Willian, the "fashionable milliner on Pennsylvania Ave where everybody who was anybody went for bonnets, also dresses." One day in the spring of 1861, Julia noticed that Mrs. Lincoln was looking intently at Mrs. Bayne's bonnet, then speaking with her. Julia was "a bit puzzled by the look of amazement on my mother's face." Julia found out later at dinner that Mrs. Lincoln had requested the bonnet strings on Mrs. Bayne's bonnet because Willian had trimmed Mrs. Lincoln's "bonnet with this same ribbon but is unable to get enough for the strings." Mr. Bayne asked what she would do. "Well," answered my mother, "I suppose I'll have to let her have it and it's provoking, for I really did like this bonnet." Willian came to the rescue.

"That day when the dress was being fitted I
heard Willian say to my mother, 'You is
veree kind, Mrs. Taft. The Madame she
want only that ribbon, not any other. If you
give up ze strings, I retrim ze bonnet with
lavender ribbon so it will be complete.' So
Willian sent for my mother's bonnet and in
a few days it came back, more beautiful than
at first, but now trimmed with lavender
white-embroidered ribbon instead of purple.

"There was a story by Miss Cleveland in
the American Magazine some time ago of a
Springfield merchant who had brought some
patterns of organdy from the city and sent
word to Mrs. Lincoln to select some before
they were put on sale.
"Mrs. Lincoln, accordingly, selected several
but when she saw the one the merchant
had chosen for his wife (they were neighbors)
she wanted that one and threatened to
return all the other patterns she had selected
unless she could have it. And the merchant's
wife had to give up her pattern and take
another.
"This illustrates the same trait as my story
of the bonnet strings. It was an outstanding
characteristic of Mary Todd Lincoln that
she wanted what she wanted when she
wanted it and no substitute! And as far as
we know, she always had it, including a
President of the United States."

Tad Lincoln's Father is available on Internet Archive.org

http://archive.org/details/tadlincolnsfathe00bayn

AntiqueFinder said:
"I am certainly not implying that Mary was a terrible woman but simply put- she wasn't a nurturing wife. Mary had her own problems, and rightfully so with what she had endured. I feel Mary was the right person in Lincoln's life to give him that push in politics, but I feel she was not the best wife for him emotionally. We all need a safe place to turn to for nurturing when things are bad and I don't feel Mary was the one for that job. I could be wrong but this is how I personally feel."


How can we know that she wasn't a nurturing wife? The only people who would know for sure are Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln, their children and the very few people who worked or resided there over the years.

Herndon was "certain" that Lincoln was miserable in his marriage, but he bases his opinion on not very much evidence, other than Lincoln sometimes staying at the office until very late at night, and some stories Herndon had gathered from others about Mary's behavior amongst the neighbors. But Herndon was either never, or almost never, a guest in the Lincoln home, so he wouldn't have seen them interacting in a domestic setting. It's pretty clear that Herndon and Mrs. Lincoln simply didn't like each other, which probably led to how he approached interviewees about her and how he wrote about her. It's not enough to point to some incidents of public histrionics to draw conclusions about her private time with Abe and how much emotional support Mary may have provided.

(I think their time in the White House is a different story; the pressures they were both under - and in Mary's case, temptations - were like nothing either had experienced before.)