Did Lincoln pick up Maj. Rathbone amd Miss Harris?

[J. Beckert]

Quote:5. Ms. Harris positively identifies the intruder as "the assassin", and confirms his identity by saying "Upon his entering the box again...".

Very good points, but don't you find it troubling that no one else reported seeing Booth on the level of the dress circle twice? According to Crawford's statement, his chair was in the aisle and he had to move it to let Booth pass. Dr. Todd reported someone pointing and saying "There's Booth" before he entered and fired the shot. Ferguson & Jennie Gourlay both stated they saw his approach and Ferguson was in a perfect spot to observe whomever was coming and going and he never mentioned an earlier visit.

Her statement Booth entered an hour before is an interesting twist, but just like her statement that Laura Keene was never in the box "from first to last", it doesn't seem to be supported by anyone else. No one else would like to believe it more than me, but it's problematic.

[Gene C]

Good point Joe, I was wondering the same thing.

On the original question, what writers/researchers mention whether the Lincoln's picked up Maj Rathbone and Miss Harris?
For one, Jim Bishop's "The Day Lincoln Was Shot" mentions they were picked up (and Rathbone was dressed as a civilian, although I infer from Booth's diary that may not be correct - " a colonel was at his side" -hard to tell that in civilian clothes)

[Laurie Verge]

My personal opinion is that Clara's recollections cannot be trusted. The experiences that she went through that night would make anyone's memories scattered and confused.

[J. Beckert]

It almost seems like she was rattled so bad that she may have seen danger when it wasn't there. I don't know much about PTSD, but it sounds like she may have been showing some signs of it.

[John Fazio]

Mr. (Ms.?) Beckert:

We all know that there are few things about the assassination that are not problematic.

I cannot imagine why Ms. Harris would say Laura Keene was not in the box, inasmuch as the evidence putting her there with her pitcher of water is solid (though not the manner in which she got there, nor who escorted her). Perhaps she held a personal grievance against Keene. What is the source of that exclusion, incidentally?

The evidence is solid that Booth was in and out of the theater many times that evening. Buckingham has it at five times; Reck puts it at six. Sessford, the ticket taker, noticed it too. Booth may well have been seen in the dress circle, but because nothing happened incident to the first trip to the box, no notice was taken of it. Query: How did he get past Forbes for the first visit? Perhaps he took advantage of Forbes's absence for a brief period. Perhaps a confederate detained him, as Marc Anthony was detained when Casesar was assassinated. Or perhaps he showed him the same authorization he later showed him. In that case, his peaceful exit from the box would establish his bona fides for the second, fatal visit. Speculative, I know, but so much of the matter is. Another possibility, given the wide disparity in the descriptions of the entry for the fatal visit (some saying Forbes was the guard; some Parker; some saying there was no guard; some saying Forbes argued with him; some saying no argument; some saying Forbes took the writing inside the box for checking; some saying he just let him pass; some saying Booth just pushed the door open with his knee, etc.), is that the two visits were conflated by some. In support of this possibility are other disparities (one report has the pistol being fired as much as five minutes after Booth's passage beyond the outer door; another report says a few seconds.)[/size][/font]

Despite the difficulties, I am comfortable with Ms. Harris's account of the dry run. She had absolutely no reason to invent it. On the contrary, it reflected poorly on her and Rathbone, which is why she did not mention it in her second account.

John

---

Mr. (Ms. Beckert):

I forgot to add that the reason no one else reported the intrusion is probably that no one else saw it. Ms. Harris's position in the box enabled her to see Door No. 8 from her peripheral vision. The Pres and Mrs. Lincoln wee looking opposite from Door No. 8. Rathbone might have seen the "peek in", but apparently didn't, or perhaps he thought silence on the point was best inasmuch as someone might ask: Why didn't you inquire as to how the presidential party's security was breached by a perfect stranger?, thereby casting a degree of culpability upon him.

I am not troubled by the silence of others on this point

John

[Laurie Verge]

I don't think she invented the story that someone came to the box previous to the assassination. I think she mis-identified the person as being Booth when it was actually that other guy whose name escapes me right now (a little help here from my friends...).

[J. Beckert]

Great points, (and it's Joe, not Mr. Beckert), but why would Booth be seen by at least two witnesses I can think of off the top of my head, giving the "valet" a card? One said he wrote on it, another said he just handed it to him. If he was admitted earlier, why would he have to identify himself again? Could be the post was empty on the first run, but it still defies the logic that a famous man was duly noted by several people on his last entry into the box and not the first. If Clara had a "personal grievance" against Miss Keene, then she blatantly lied. As you stated, evidence is there that she was admitted. Something is not clicking for me on this point.

You may be thinking of Simon Hanscom, Laurie, but someone stated he never entered the box. He merely handed the dispatch off to Forbes.

[RJNorton]

(05-23-2013 10:15 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  What is the source of that exclusion, incidentally?

Hi John. I had this in my notes, but I do not have the article itself.

Clara Harris was positive that "Laura Keene did not enter the box from first to last." - Clara Harris interview with Emily Edson Briggs published in the Philadelphia Weekly Times, December 29, 1878.

[scldrgnfly]

You have laid it out nicely, I think, John. I have a couple of other questions.

One, would it not have been a matter of protocol for the carriage to have picked up Harris and Rathbone at the Harris' and then pick up the President and his wife, so they needn't be imposed upon to wait for the couple in the carriage?

Also, when Herold said he delivered caster oil to the President, was the President waiting at the door for deliveries, especially one so insignificant, or did he have a reason to meet the delivery person, or did Lincoln just happen to be passing by when Herold made the delivery? To me, the supposed meeting has an untrue ring.

[John Fazio]

Laurie, Joe, Roger and Dragonfly:

A few comments:

1. Laurie, you must be thinking of Hanscomb. Here is what he wrote:

We went there for the purpose of delivering to the President a message...upon reaching the door we found no other person...than Mr. Charles Forbes...As the play was progressing we requested Forbes to hand the dispatch to the President. (National Republican, June 8, 1865)

Hanscomb is reported to have come 5 to 20 minutes before the assassination. (Letter of eyewitness A.M.S. Crawford, quoted in Good, pp. 29,30; Reck, p. 93; Pitman, p. 96; The Trial of John H. Surratt, Vol. 1, p. 129; and letter of George B. Todd to his brother, April 15, 1865)

2. Joe: I believe you are referring to McGowan and Crawford, and you make a great point: If Booth showed Forbes a writing (and the evidence is persuasive that he did), then he must have gained entry the first time without dealing with Forbes. Perhaps this was the time when he was reported by one eyewitness as having simply pushed the door open with his knee, no guard being present.

3. Roger, 13 years is enough time for the memory to fade, to say nothing of all the confusion attendant to the event. Keene was there. Harris is simply mistaken. Perhaps she was out of the box by the time Keene arrived. She was being comforted for shock just as Mary Lincoln was; perhaps she was simply unaware of who was there. Taft claimed he held Lincoln's head when the President was carried downstairs. Leale said he did. Both were honorable men, as far as we know. These kinds of discrepancies occur on occasions of great stress.

4 Dragonfly. Protocol, yes. I believe this issue is settled by my earlier message in which I cited, I believe, 6 references, attesting to the fact that all four of the presidential party left the White House together. Quotes suggesting otherwise are not being interpreted correctly, in my opinion.

Please refresh my recollection about the castor oil story. I am only vaguely familiar with it.

Thank you.

John

[RJNorton]

(05-23-2013 12:37 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Please refresh my recollection about the castor oil story. I am only vaguely familiar with it.

John, I mentioned once before I thought this came up in the John Surratt trial, and I am including the relevant testimony here. However, the way I read it, I cannot see this as being definitive that Herold actually delivered castor oil to the White House.

*************************************

William S. Thompson recalled and examined.

By Mr. Pierrepont:

Q. Can you give us the date at which Herold was a clerk in your store?

A. From the 1st of March, 1863, until the 4th day of July following.

Q. State whether Mr. Lincoln obtained his medicines there during that time.

A. Yes, sir; he did.

Q. Do you know whether Herold put up any for him?

A. I have examined my books and blotter, to ascertain, as nearly as possible, whether Herold mixed any medicines for him during that time. I find only one article charged by Herold.

Q. Then you have no other means of knowing.

[Mr. Bradley said he could not see the relevancy of this testimony, and desired it to be received subject to his objection.

Mr. Pierrepont said he would endeavor to make it relevant.]

A. I have no other means of knowing.

Cross-examined by Mr. Bradley:

Q. Does it follow because the charge was in Herold's handwriting, that he put the medicine up?

A. Not necessarily; no, sir.

Q. What is the date at which the medicine was put up?

A. June 22, 1863 — a small vial of castor-oil.

Q. What other clerks had you in the store at that time?

A. I had two others — Clinton M. Sears and Charles McGlue.

Q. Where is Sears at this time ?

A. He is dead.

Q. Where is McGlue?

A. He is engaged in a store now on Seventh street, in this city.

Q. In business for himself or as a clerk.

A. As a clerk.

Q. For whom?

A. In a drug store on Seventh street, opposite Taylor's, kept I believe by a man by the name of Cassin.

[John Fazio]

(05-23-2013 04:30 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 12:37 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Please refresh my recollection about the castor oil story. I am only vaguely familiar with it.

John, I mentioned once before I thought this came up in the John Surratt trial, and I am including the relevant testimony here. However, the way I read it, I cannot see this as being definitive that Herold actually delivered castor oil to the White House.

*************************************

William S. Thompson recalled and examined.

By Mr. Pierrepont:

Q. Can you give us the date at which Herold was a clerk in your store?

A. From the 1st of March, 1863, until the 4th day of July following.

Q. State whether Mr. Lincoln obtained his medicines there during that time.

A. Yes, sir; he did.

Q. Do you know whether Herold put up any for him?

A. I have examined my books and blotter, to ascertain, as nearly as possible, whether Herold mixed any medicines for him during that time. I find only one article charged by Herold.

Q. Then you have no other means of knowing.

[Mr. Bradley said he could not see the relevancy of this testimony, and desired it to be received subject to his objection.

Mr. Pierrepont said he would endeavor to make it relevant.]

A. I have no other means of knowing.

Cross-examined by Mr. Bradley:

Q. Does it follow because the charge was in Herold's handwriting, that he put the medicine up?

A. Not necessarily; no, sir.

Q. What is the date at which the medicine was put up?

A. June 22, 1863 — a small vial of castor-oil.

Q. What other clerks had you in the store at that time?

A. I had two others — Clinton M. Sears and Charles McGlue.

Q. Where is Sears at this time ?

A. He is dead.

Q. Where is McGlue?

A. He is engaged in a store now on Seventh street, in this city.

Q. In business for himself or as a clerk.

A. As a clerk.

Q. For whom?

A. In a drug store on Seventh street, opposite Taylor's, kept I believe by a man by the name of Cassin.

Roger:

Thank you for this. I had almost forgotten about it. The only comments I have about it are:

1. Herold's date of termination (July 4) roughly coincides with the likely date on which he came aboard the Booth conspiracy, though I had previously read that it was September 4. Perhaps he left Thompson's and went elsewhere for a couple of months and then joined Booth. Booth got started with his recruiting in early August, 1864 (Baltimore: Arnold and O'Laughlen), after his July meeting in Boston with Confederate agents. Herold had been well known to the Surratts for years.

2. It is guesswork, but certainly possible that Herold passed tainted medicines to the White House. There are several reports in the histories of the Lincolns becoming ill at more or less the same time and of suspicions of poisoning. On the scaffold, Herold asked for forgiveness for all the evil he had done. Who can say what he had in mind?

John

---

(05-23-2013 09:22 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Good point Joe, I was wondering the same thing.

On the original question, what writers/researchers mention whether the Lincoln's picked up Maj Rathbone and Miss Harris?
For one, Jim Bishop's "The Day Lincoln Was Shot" mentions they were picked up (and Rathbone was dressed as a civilian, although I infer from Booth's diary that may not be correct - " a colonel was at his side" -hard to tell that in civilian clothes)

Gene:

Bishop's work is more historical novel than history. We have to know he is relying entirely on secondary authority for his comment on the subject.

John

---

(05-20-2013 08:55 PM)Rhatkinson Wrote:  I respect John's research on this topic, but wonder what his response is to Harris' statement as reported in "Lincoln's Last Night" on 4/29/1865 where she wrote that, "They [President and Mrs. Lincoln] drove to our door in the gayest spirits..."

This would seem to imply that the Rathbone's were picked up, which I realize is contrary to what Noah Brooks and others reported. How do you explain this?

(I found this in the article "The Rathbone Connection" by Frank Rathbun in the July, 1982 issue of the Surratt Courrier.)

Heath

Hello:

I do not have an explanation. I would like to see the entire article so that I can assess its source and context. On its face, it appears to contradict my conclusions and the evidence I offer in support thereof. I feel that there must be more to the story. It sometimes happens that flagrant disparities are explained and reconciled when we have the entire context.

John

---

Everyone:

Correction. I had previously said that Clara Harris's first account mentioned the dry run, but not Rathbone's inquiring of Booth as to the nature of his business. That is not true. The first account also contained the inquiry. The second account, given two days later, mentioned neither the dry run nor the inquiry. It is believed she dropped both items because they reflected poorly on her and her fiancee.

John

[RJNorton]

(05-24-2013 10:25 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  I do not have an explanation. I would like to see the entire article so that I can assess its source and context. On its face, it appears to contradict my conclusions and the evidence I offer in support thereof. I feel that there must be more to the story. It sometimes happens that flagrant disparities are explained and reconciled when we have the entire context.

John, you can read Clara's entire statement here.

[LincolnMan]

(05-23-2013 04:49 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Roger, Laurie, Betty, et al.:

I would like to comment on Clara Harris's reliability as a witness and, specifically, on her comment re Booth's prior entry to the box.

Granted some witnesses are better than others (e.g. Leale, Rathbone and Weichmann are good; Stewart (Joseph), Sleichmann and Ritterspaugh are bad), still, it is probably true that nothing is perfectly recalled. Ms. Harris, in my opinion, is a good witness if not a great one. She made two statements, one immediately after the assassination, one two days later. The first refers to the intruder, but says nothing about Rathbone addressing Booth when he attacked; the second omits reference to the intruder, but says Rathbone asked Booth what his business was when he attacked. I regard her reference to the intruder as historical and it is in my book, referred to as "the dry run", for the following reasons:

1. It is in her first statement when the events were freshest in her mind, before she had time to consider appearances.
2. She probably left it out of her second statement because it cast her fiancee in a bad light for not having followed it up with an inquiry.
3. For the same reason, she has her fiancee challenging Booth on his second visit, but not on his first. Both of these changes argue for authenticity of the first statement.
4. Booth needed to make a dry run because though he could see who was seated beside the outer door, he did not know what he would have to contend with in the passageway. It was therefore necessary for him to go into the passageway to make that determination, and while he was there he stuck his head into the presidential box (that's all Ms. Harris said he did) to determine the position of the occupants and the President's protection. Why didn't he strike then? Because he had a timetable. All strikes had to occur at about the same time, i.e. 10:15.
5. Ms. Harris positively identifies the intruder as "the assassin", and confirms his identity by saying "Upon his entering the box again...".
6. Ms. Harris had no motivation to fabricate this incident.
7. The intruder could not have been Hanscomb, as postulated by Eisenschiml, because Hanscomb could not be clearer: He found only Forbes in front of the outer door and he left the White House dispatch with Forbes; he DID NOT take it into the box. Furthemore, Ms. Harris places the intrusion at about an hour before the fatal strike; Hanscomb came 20 minutes before the strike. Furthermore, Ms. Harris said the intruder just looked in to take a survey; he did not come into the box and deliver anything to anyone.
8. Ms. Harris's first statement is accepted as true by Noah Brooks (Burlingame,p. 189) See also The Lincoln Assassination, pp. 43, 979; Bryan, pp. 178, 179.

I have the honor to be, Sir and Madam, your most obedient and humble servant

John

John: that is extremely interesting information. Thanks for sharing it.

[calebj123]

Sorry for chiming in late on this, but I wanted to say that I side with John on Clara's reliability as a witness. The acts of Clara after the assassination have been highly regarded as level headed in all aspects. She helped save Henry's life by finally stanching the flow of blood from his wound, she assisted in moving Mary Todd to the Peterson house, as well as staying by her side as Lincoln died. Clara was also the only person involved in the assassination to go back to the State box. According to the trial, Clara, her father, Judge Olin, Judge Carter and James P. Ferguson went back to investigate the scene of the crime two days later. Clara was the most level headed of any of the witnesses and continued to be so throughout her life. I second the opinion that Booth did a dry-run and scoped out the box that night. It's not only good planning, but would have been easy for him to do. The fact that there's no mention of Forbes seeing him the first time doesn't mean too much. There are plenty of stranger coincidences that night that led to the final assassination. Forbes could have stepped out with Parker at that time.