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RJNorton · 09-21-2015, 05:07 AM

Does everybody agree that George Atzerodt was originally Booth's choice to go to Surrattsville on the 14th and do the exact same things Mary Surratt did (take the field glasses to Lloyd and tell him to have the guns ready)? This is what the late Art Loux writes in John Wilkes Booth: Day By Day. Art writes that originally JWB told Herold to tell Atzerodt to go to Surrattsville to do this "errand." However, when Booth stopped by Mary's boardinghouse on the morning of the 14th he learned that Mary was already planning her trip, and thus Booth then went to Atzerodt and told him there was now no need for him to make the trip. Maybe I have read this in other books; if so, I had forgotten, as I had thought Mary Surratt was Booth's only choice for this April 14th "errand." If Art is right she wasn't even his original choice.

HerbS · 09-21-2015, 06:26 AM

Pamela-PTSD is a mystery disorder for each person who has it! I kinow,because I suffer from it myself! I do think you on a very hard to prove track with Weichmann,but a good one to investigate.

Gene C · 09-21-2015, 06:53 AM

(09-21-2015 05:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Does everybody agree that George Atzerodt was originally Booth's choice to go to Surrattsville on the 14th and do the exact same things Mary Surratt did (take the field glasses to Lloyd and tell him to have the guns ready)? This is what the late Art Loux writes in John Wilkes Booth: Day By Day.

Hadn't heard that before.
How about this thought for all the "Weichmann Was A Part Of The Plot" fans (WWAPOTP - pronounced the way it sounds)
Booth's real plan is for Weichmann to go to Surrattsville. Mary is invited to go along to provide a cover story.
Smile

"Sometimes the real answer is right under your nose" - Pinocchio

Susan Higginbotham · (This post was last modified: 09-21-2015 07:33 AM by Susan Higginbotham.)

(09-20-2015 05:45 PM)Pamela Wrote: Laurie, you made an assumption as to what I meant by the word 'concoction' which was wrong. In his book, written more than two decades after the assassination, Weichmann admitted that he, over the years, pondered the details of the day of the trip to Surrattsville on the 14th "almost incessantly". That's OCD for you! I think he suffered from a combination of OCD and PTSD (post traumatic stress syndrome). The letter from Calvert which Mrs. Surratt told Louis came on the 14th, was dated the 12th, and he believed that Mary lied to him when she said the letter arrived on the 14th because it should have arrived no later than the 13th. Mary used this urgency of timing to explain to him the necessity and the purpose of the trip, and she had him say the same in a letter he wrote to Nothey at her behest at the tavern. Nowhere in the letter did she mention an appointment with him at the tavern, or to meet her at the tavern or anywhere else, and Gynne was given the letter just after it was written and testified that he gave it to Nothey that day.

P 170, Weichmann: Whenever I think of it, and it is almost incessantly, it is always with feelings of mortification and shame, that a woman, having children other than myself, could have so basely and willingly betrayed my confidence, and stooped to actions which have almost ruined my life. It was a vile insult and outrage upon my young manhood. That drive to Surrattsville, and the developments growing out of it, cost Mrs. Surratt her life. She dug a pit for others, but fell into it herself. Certain it is, if she had remained at home and attended to the duties of her boarding house, she would, I verily believe, not have been punished as she was."

You said,
"People have also asked me why she just didn't go to Nothey's house to demand the money. A Victorian lady would not do that. It just was not proper, and it was not safe when dealing with a somewhat spurious character. I may be wrong in assuming this, but Louis Weichmann could have knocked on Nothey's door as her representative. Perhaps Mrs. Surratt didn't think he could be forceful enough?"

Mary paid a visit to Powell (talk about spurious characters, having just brutally beat a woman and on the eve of the almost-slaughter at Seward's house) in his hotel room at the Herndon House, was that proper? Are you saying that Louis might not have had the force or strength to lift his hand up to knock on the door, or not been forceful enough to say, 'Mrs. Surratt would like to speak to you."? Louis had attributes enough to drive her in the country and serve as her protector during the trip. Are you saying she needed a Mafia loan shark to deal with Nothey, despite the fact that she, a Victorian lady, had managed to hold a business conversation with him just a few days prior?

You said, "People always assume that she waited around for Lloyd to come home so that she could deliver the field glasses and message. Emma Offutt could have done that. " Emma would have told Lloyd to have the shooting irons and whiskey ready for parties coming that night?

Regardless of when Mary got the letter (and a letter is not necessarily mailed on the same day it is dated--stuff does happen), she didn't know until Weichmann came home early from work with the news that Stanton had given employees the day off (see his letter on p. 164, which was dated and read to the clerks the morning of the 14th) that he would be available to drive her to the country. Weichmann went out to hire the buggy and returned to find Booth at the house. That strongly suggests one of two things: (1) Mary had already made plans to go to the tavern to attend to her personal business, with Weichmann as her driver, before Booth turned up and gave her the message and the items to deliver or (2) Booth had been by earlier that day and given Mary the message and the items, but Mary hadn't arranged for transportation to the tavern until Weichmann unexpectedly came home from work early. Given the importance of the message and the items for Booth, I think (1) is far the most likely scenario, as it would make no sense for him to entrust Mary with the items and message if he wasn't certain that she would be able to get to the tavern that day.

HerbS · 09-21-2015, 07:46 AM

Roger.I think that Art Loux was dead-on with his research and writing!

L Verge · 09-21-2015, 09:54 AM

(09-20-2015 05:45 PM)Pamela Wrote: Laurie, you made an assumption as to what I meant by the word 'concoction' which was wrong. In his book, written more than two decades after the assassination, Weichmann admitted that he, over the years, pondered the details of the day of the trip to Surrattsville on the 14th "almost incessantly". That's OCD for you! I think he suffered from a combination of OCD and PTSD (post traumatic stress syndrome). The letter from Calvert which Mrs. Surratt told Louis came on the 14th, was dated the 12th, and he believed that Mary lied to him when she said the letter arrived on the 14th because it should have arrived no later than the 13th. Mary used this urgency of timing to explain to him the necessity and the purpose of the trip, and she had him say the same in a letter he wrote to Nothey at her behest at the tavern. Nowhere in the letter did she mention an appointment with him at the tavern, or to meet her at the tavern or anywhere else, and Gynne was given the letter just after it was written and testified that he gave it to Nothey that day.

P 170, Weichmann: Whenever I think of it, and it is almost incessantly, it is always with feelings of mortification and shame, that a woman, having children other than myself, could have so basely and willingly betrayed my confidence, and stooped to actions which have almost ruined my life. It was a vile insult and outrage upon my young manhood. That drive to Surrattsville, and the developments growing out of it, cost Mrs. Surratt her life. She dug a pit for others, but fell into it herself. Certain it is, if she had remained at home and attended to the duties of her boarding house, she would, I verily believe, not have been punished as she was."

You said,
"People have also asked me why she just didn't go to Nothey's house to demand the money. A Victorian lady would not do that. It just was not proper, and it was not safe when dealing with a somewhat spurious character. I may be wrong in assuming this, but Louis Weichmann could have knocked on Nothey's door as her representative. Perhaps Mrs. Surratt didn't think he could be forceful enough?"

Mary paid a visit to Powell (talk about spurious characters, having just brutally beat a woman and on the eve of the almost-slaughter at Seward's house) in his hotel room at the Herndon House, was that proper? Are you saying that Louis might not have had the force or strength to lift his hand up to knock on the door, or not been forceful enough to say, 'Mrs. Surratt would like to speak to you."? Louis had attributes enough to drive her in the country and serve as her protector during the trip. Are you saying she needed a Mafia loan shark to deal with Nothey, despite the fact that she, a Victorian lady, had managed to hold a business conversation with him just a few days prior?

You said, "People always assume that she waited around for Lloyd to come home so that she could deliver the field glasses and message. Emma Offutt could have done that. " Emma would have told Lloyd to have the shooting irons and whiskey ready for parties coming that night?

Weichmann was likely wrong in thinking the letter should have arrived on the 13th. We have the schedule for the mail coach stops from D.C. to Leonardtown and back. The 13th would have been a return trip to D.C. and too late for mail delivery or pick-up.

As for him being a protector during the trip, there really wasn't much need for that unless she would be hasseled by some of the Union soldiers. And, in dealing with Nothey, Mary had a better chance of appealing to his better side in dealing with a widow lady who desperately needed money.

As for Emma, I certainly do think she could have delivered the field glasses and message to Lloyd. In fact, Mrs. Surratt had already given her the package, which Emma left on the parlor sofa, and was preparing to leave when Lloyd arrived home, offered her some fish, and ended up fixing her carriage.

Since Emma lived here too, I suspect she was already aware of the rifles and supplies being hidden here and of the underground traffic that frequented the place. Howell's arrest here had just occurred a few weeks earlier.

She was no babe in the woods -- and even if she were, that message from Booth did not let on that a dastardly deed would happen that required those items being picked up. It could have meant that the war was over so get those things and move on with life. That could even have been Mrs. Surratt's thoughts about why she was delivering such a message.

L Verge · 09-21-2015, 12:01 PM

(09-21-2015 09:54 AM)L Verge Wrote:
(09-20-2015 05:45 PM)Pamela Wrote: Laurie, you made an assumption as to what I meant by the word 'concoction' which was wrong. In his book, written more than two decades after the assassination, Weichmann admitted that he, over the years, pondered the details of the day of the trip to Surrattsville on the 14th "almost incessantly". That's OCD for you! I think he suffered from a combination of OCD and PTSD (post traumatic stress syndrome). The letter from Calvert which Mrs. Surratt told Louis came on the 14th, was dated the 12th, and he believed that Mary lied to him when she said the letter arrived on the 14th because it should have arrived no later than the 13th. Mary used this urgency of timing to explain to him the necessity and the purpose of the trip, and she had him say the same in a letter he wrote to Nothey at her behest at the tavern. Nowhere in the letter did she mention an appointment with him at the tavern, or to meet her at the tavern or anywhere else, and Gynne was given the letter just after it was written and testified that he gave it to Nothey that day.

P 170, Weichmann: Whenever I think of it, and it is almost incessantly, it is always with feelings of mortification and shame, that a woman, having children other than myself, could have so basely and willingly betrayed my confidence, and stooped to actions which have almost ruined my life. It was a vile insult and outrage upon my young manhood. That drive to Surrattsville, and the developments growing out of it, cost Mrs. Surratt her life. She dug a pit for others, but fell into it herself. Certain it is, if she had remained at home and attended to the duties of her boarding house, she would, I verily believe, not have been punished as she was."

You said,
"People have also asked me why she just didn't go to Nothey's house to demand the money. A Victorian lady would not do that. It just was not proper, and it was not safe when dealing with a somewhat spurious character. I may be wrong in assuming this, but Louis Weichmann could have knocked on Nothey's door as her representative. Perhaps Mrs. Surratt didn't think he could be forceful enough?"

Mary paid a visit to Powell (talk about spurious characters, having just brutally beat a woman and on the eve of the almost-slaughter at Seward's house) in his hotel room at the Herndon House, was that proper? Are you saying that Louis might not have had the force or strength to lift his hand up to knock on the door, or not been forceful enough to say, 'Mrs. Surratt would like to speak to you."? Louis had attributes enough to drive her in the country and serve as her protector during the trip. Are you saying she needed a Mafia loan shark to deal with Nothey, despite the fact that she, a Victorian lady, had managed to hold a business conversation with him just a few days prior?

You said, "People always assume that she waited around for Lloyd to come home so that she could deliver the field glasses and message. Emma Offutt could have done that. " Emma would have told Lloyd to have the shooting irons and whiskey ready for parties coming that night?

Weichmann was likely wrong in thinking the letter should have arrived on the 13th. We have the schedule for the mail coach stops from D.C. to Leonardtown and back. The 13th would have been a return trip to D.C. and too late for mail delivery or pick-up.

As for him being a protector during the trip, there really wasn't much need for that unless she would be hasseled by some of the Union soldiers. And, in dealing with Nothey, Mary had a better chance of appealing to his better side in dealing with a widow lady who desperately needed money.

As for Emma, I certainly do think she could have delivered the field glasses and message to Lloyd. In fact, Mrs. Surratt had already given her the package, which Emma left on the parlor sofa, and was preparing to leave when Lloyd arrived home, offered her some fish, and ended up fixing her carriage.

Since Emma lived here too, I suspect she was already aware of the rifles and supplies being hidden here and of the underground traffic that frequented the place. Howell's arrest here had just occurred a few weeks earlier.

She was no babe in the woods -- and even if she were, that message from Booth did not let on that a dastardly deed would happen that required those items being picked up. It could have meant that the war was over so get those things and move on with life. That could even have been Mrs. Surratt's thoughts about why she was delivering such a message.

Addendum: I forgot to reply to your comment about Mrs. Surratt visiting Powell at the Herndon House. IF she had visited him in his room, it was most certainly improper. However, it is very likely that he came from his room to Mrs. Murray's parlor to meet with Mary. That would certainly be proper.

Since no one went inside with her to say otherwise, we should consider that they both followed proper protocol. And, Powell's actions against the black maid and his later attempt on Seward have nothing to do with respect that he might show to a lady that he knew, probably respected, and could have been a cohort.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 09-22-2015 05:04 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Weichmann wrote that his father was photographed at the War Department. Does that photo still exist somewhere? Also, does a photo of Annie Ward exist?

Pamela · 09-22-2015, 08:06 PM

I haven't looked for Annie Ward, but I looked for Louis's father and any other family picture but no luck. I wonder if they photographed everyone they put into Capital prison--it would have been a lot of pictures, and if so, what happened to them.

L Verge · 09-23-2015, 08:22 AM

(09-22-2015 08:06 PM)Pamela Wrote: I haven't looked for Annie Ward, but I looked for Louis's father and any other family picture but no luck. I wonder if they photographed everyone they put into Capital prison--it would have been a lot of pictures, and if so, what happened to them.

There are no "prison photos" of Mrs. Surratt or Dr. Mudd, both of whom were housed at Old Capitol for several weeks. My suspicion is that none of those who stayed at that prison were photographed.

I have not seen a photo of Annie Ward either, and knowing the amount of contacts that Bettie Trindal made with Surratt family and friends while researching An American Tragedy, I would think she would have published such a photo if she found one.

Eva Elisabeth · 09-23-2015, 07:23 PM

Thanks, Pamela and Laurie.

Pamela · 09-25-2015, 06:43 PM

Has anyone translated the letters, presumably written by Louis to St Marie in French? P 504-5 The Evidence

Pamela · (This post was last modified: 10-09-2015 05:43 PM by Pamela.)

(09-11-2015 09:34 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:
(09-11-2015 08:28 AM)Pamela Wrote: Of course and I always keep that in mind. There are some historians that don't. Sloan's comment sounded arrogant, thoughtless and dismissive, JMO. I do think weight should be given to historical figures who knew Weichmann, watched him testify, and had important roles in those historical events.

I haven't read Herndon's book; I better catch up. Annie Weichmann and her gang might have made herself useful with him.

I'll take a guess regarding Conroy, Mulcahy and Abel. Abel was an alter boy for Mulcahy and mentioned that he was going to Weichmann's school for free tuition in exchange for office work. Mulcahy's Weichmann radar began spinning out of control. Over a period of time he pumped Abel for info. There were multiple copies of the manuscript. Those copies became two books to Abel and Mulcahy but not in reality. Maybe Abel typed copies or not; he caught glimpses of the writing in Louis's office. Maybe he helped pack them up to ship to Holt, Richards or Porter. Perhaps he saw portions of the chapter on Father Walters but didn't read it through and wouldn't have understood it if he did. That chapter sent Mulcahy into overdrive and became The Pope and the Southern Confederacy. BTW, was there a northern confederacy? oh yeah, Canada! The reality was that Weichmann very clearly said there was no Papal conspiracy, since the Pope ordered Surratt's arrest, but that there were individual clergy who supported the southern cause, but were not part of a vast conspiracy.

Mulcahy passed the tale on to Conroy who might have added some Catholic guilt and assorted codswallop of his own to the mix, and saw the necessity of sending this very important historical account to the Lincoln studies in Fort Wayne or whatever it was. Abel felt the vital importance of writing his version 70 years later and filed it in St Mary's where Ewald found it and drew inspiration. The rest is history, and pun intended, so to speak.

Maybe Weichmann did tell Abel about the conspiracy and trials one night during a storm. Perhaps there is some truth to some of the anecdotes of Weichmann's behavior. But what never happened, not in a million years, was that he sent a manuscript home a poorly educated 15 yr old boy to read.

Abel was attending Weichmann's school, so surely he couldn't have been all that poorly educated. And who's to say Weichmann wouldn't have allowed a bright pupil who was interested in the assassination to read his manuscript?

From Abel's 6 page report, "At the age of about 21 Lewis Weichman was working in the State Department and studied law at night school. He was boarding at the house of Mrs. Surrat, a southern widow who had two children, a son, John, and a daughter , Mary. The son's age was about 20 or 21, the daughter was younger. Mrs. Surrat was also a Catholic. Now Edward Stanton was Secretary of War and had a strong personality and very opinated, and that his way was the right way. He hated President Lincoln and had done everything he could against the President, and called him a big babboon."

Eva Elisabeth · 10-09-2015, 06:05 PM

Pamela, do you perhaps know the answer to Roger's question here?
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...-2691.html

Susan Higginbotham · 10-09-2015, 06:51 PM

(10-09-2015 05:40 PM)Pamela Wrote:
(09-11-2015 09:34 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:
(09-11-2015 08:28 AM)Pamela Wrote: Of course and I always keep that in mind. There are some historians that don't. Sloan's comment sounded arrogant, thoughtless and dismissive, JMO. I do think weight should be given to historical figures who knew Weichmann, watched him testify, and had important roles in those historical events.

I haven't read Herndon's book; I better catch up. Annie Weichmann and her gang might have made herself useful with him.

I'll take a guess regarding Conroy, Mulcahy and Abel. Abel was an alter boy for Mulcahy and mentioned that he was going to Weichmann's school for free tuition in exchange for office work. Mulcahy's Weichmann radar began spinning out of control. Over a period of time he pumped Abel for info. There were multiple copies of the manuscript. Those copies became two books to Abel and Mulcahy but not in reality. Maybe Abel typed copies or not; he caught glimpses of the writing in Louis's office. Maybe he helped pack them up to ship to Holt, Richards or Porter. Perhaps he saw portions of the chapter on Father Walters but didn't read it through and wouldn't have understood it if he did. That chapter sent Mulcahy into overdrive and became The Pope and the Southern Confederacy. BTW, was there a northern confederacy? oh yeah, Canada! The reality was that Weichmann very clearly said there was no Papal conspiracy, since the Pope ordered Surratt's arrest, but that there were individual clergy who supported the southern cause, but were not part of a vast conspiracy.

Mulcahy passed the tale on to Conroy who might have added some Catholic guilt and assorted codswallop of his own to the mix, and saw the necessity of sending this very important historical account to the Lincoln studies in Fort Wayne or whatever it was. Abel felt the vital importance of writing his version 70 years later and filed it in St Mary's where Ewald found it and drew inspiration. The rest is history, and pun intended, so to speak.

Maybe Weichmann did tell Abel about the conspiracy and trials one night during a storm. Perhaps there is some truth to some of the anecdotes of Weichmann's behavior. But what never happened, not in a million years, was that he sent a manuscript home a poorly educated 15 yr old boy to read.

Abel was attending Weichmann's school, so surely he couldn't have been all that poorly educated. And who's to say Weichmann wouldn't have allowed a bright pupil who was interested in the assassination to read his manuscript?

From Abel's 6 page report, "At the age of about 21 Lewis Weichman was working in the State Department and studied law at night school. He was boarding at the house of Mrs. Surrat, a southern widow who had two children, a son, John, and a daughter , Mary. The son's age was about 20 or 21, the daughter was younger. Mrs. Surrat was also a Catholic. Now Edward Stanton was Secretary of War and had a strong personality and very opinated, and that his way was the right way. He hated President Lincoln and had done everything he could against the President, and called him a big babboon."

I'm missing your point here. Is it that there are factual errors in Abel's comments (State Department, studying law, etc.)? Not surprising, given the passage of time and his age.