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BettyO · 02-06-2013, 12:40 PM

I LOVE Ginger Beer and Cucumber Sandwiches! What is a Manchester Tart?

wsanto · (This post was last modified: 02-06-2013 01:45 PM by wsanto.)

(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: My problem with these telegrams is this, from where did the soldiers get their information? Booth was still on the run and no one had read his diary when these telegrams were written. Therefore, Wood and Waite could not have gotten their information from Booth's writings. What's more, the 2 out of the 3 telegrams mentioned the idea that Booth fell off of his horse, though they dismissed this. The only person at Bryantown at the time who could have told the soldiers such specific details of Booth's broken leg would have been Dr. Mudd. Yet Dr. Mudd never admitted to any knowledge of the assassination over his entire life, let alone in the early days of the investigation. His statements in Bryantown on the 21st recount the idea that Booth broke his leg from a fall off a horse. Had Mudd admitted that the man who showed up at his house broke his leg when he jumped from the box after shooting Lincoln, he would have been certainly executed for not turning in the man he knew to be Lincoln's assassin.

The way I see it, the language of William Wood's telegrams show that he was under the impression that Booth broke his leg when he jumped to the stage, even though he had no evidence for it. In fact, the lines, "it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning," demonstrates that he ignored evidence to the contrary to his opinion and continued to support his idea without merit. The subsequent telegram from Waite must have been influenced by Wood's assertions, even though they were unfounded.

I honestly don't know how to take these telegrams. While they don't technically weaken or support either of the theories, I believe that they demonstrate the danger of sticking to a belief even when faced with contrary evidence. The fact is, there was no reliable way for Wood and Waite to know Booth broke his leg in jumping from the stage. With the exception of Booth's diary, there is no reliable way for us to know either. A collection of evidence, a deal of it noticeably circumstantial mind you, does support the idea of Booth falling from his horse. The amount of evidence seems to be in favor of Kauffman's theory, but it still seems to come down to whether or not we believe Booth's word. Due to this, I’m sure the debate will always exist.

Dave,

I see these telegrams as better evidence of Booth breaking his leg at Ford's.

These telegrams are a reminder that these investigators had more evidence in 1865 than we have today. There must have been some rather convincing evidence of the break at Ford's that has been lost to history. How else would they have created the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's? We know, at this point, they didn't have Booth's diary. If the theory was based on supposition, it would be quite a coincidence that Booth made the same claim.

The problem is, whatever that evidence was, we don't have that evidence today. But whatever that evidence was, when these contemporary investigators weighed it against the evidence that Booth fell from his horse, it was convincing enough for them to conclude that Booth broke his leg at Ford's.

02-07-2013, 07:50 AM

(02-06-2013 08:55 AM)HerbS Wrote: One of my favorites,"That dog will hunt,"My friend from KY while we were playing golf!By goly it did!--Us for the ball !!!!

My late Uncle Bob would say. "It's colder than a creek rock"

Jim Garrett · 02-08-2013, 07:41 PM

(02-06-2013 12:35 PM)MaddieM Wrote:
(12-23-2012 03:28 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: The Surratt Tavern will be closed this next month for renovation....(installation of the STUCKEY'S sign and drive-thru window). It will re-open in the spring with Pecan rolls, moon pies, RCs and grape sodas.

We don't have those in the UK. We have fig rolls, manchester tarts, cucumber sandwiches and lashings of ginger beer.

We need to send you a Southern Care Package.

Jim Page · 02-08-2013, 08:30 PM

(02-08-2013 07:41 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: We need to send you a Southern Care Package.

Jim, this isn't the worst idea you've ever had! I wonder if we should do this. I think a can of bolled peanuts might survive the trip, and of course a large box of grits is required.

--Jim

L Verge · 02-09-2013, 12:52 PM

Do you think Pecan Pie would survive the trip? We would just have to send instructions for the Red Eye Gravy to go over the grits. Same thing with Chicken and Waffles. And don't forget Pralines (definitely have to get them sent from Charleston, SC, however). What about Feather Bed Rolls? Maryland She-Crab Soup? Peanut Soup?

Jim Page · 02-09-2013, 01:04 PM

(02-09-2013 12:52 PM)L Verge Wrote: . . . Pecan Pie . . . Red Eye Gravy . . . Chicken and Waffles . . . Pralines . . . What about Feather Bed Rolls? Maryland She-Crab Soup? Peanut Soup?

This is going to be a feast! I suppose for something as elaborate as this is becoming that we'll need to hire Jim Nabors to deliver the crate. I hope he can operate a forklift.

--Jim

MaddieM · (This post was last modified: 02-09-2013 06:17 PM by MaddieM.)

(02-09-2013 12:52 PM)L Verge Wrote: Do you think Pecan Pie would survive the trip? We would just have to send instructions for the Red Eye Gravy to go over the grits. Same thing with Chicken and Waffles. And don't forget Pralines (definitely have to get them sent from Charleston, SC, however). What about Feather Bed Rolls? Maryland She-Crab Soup? Peanut Soup?

I make the most divine maple syrup and pecan fudge. It just melts in your mouth. I sell it over here in England. What ARE grits?

(02-06-2013 01:34 PM)wsanto Wrote:
(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: My problem with these telegrams is this, from where did the soldiers get their information? Booth was still on the run and no one had read his diary when these telegrams were written. Therefore, Wood and Waite could not have gotten their information from Booth's writings. What's more, the 2 out of the 3 telegrams mentioned the idea that Booth fell off of his horse, though they dismissed this. The only person at Bryantown at the time who could have told the soldiers such specific details of Booth's broken leg would have been Dr. Mudd. Yet Dr. Mudd never admitted to any knowledge of the assassination over his entire life, let alone in the early days of the investigation. His statements in Bryantown on the 21st recount the idea that Booth broke his leg from a fall off a horse. Had Mudd admitted that the man who showed up at his house broke his leg when he jumped from the box after shooting Lincoln, he would have been certainly executed for not turning in the man he knew to be Lincoln's assassin.

The way I see it, the language of William Wood's telegrams show that he was under the impression that Booth broke his leg when he jumped to the stage, even though he had no evidence for it. In fact, the lines, "it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning," demonstrates that he ignored evidence to the contrary to his opinion and continued to support his idea without merit. The subsequent telegram from Waite must have been influenced by Wood's assertions, even though they were unfounded.

I honestly don't know how to take these telegrams. While they don't technically weaken or support either of the theories, I believe that they demonstrate the danger of sticking to a belief even when faced with contrary evidence. The fact is, there was no reliable way for Wood and Waite to know Booth broke his leg in jumping from the stage. With the exception of Booth's diary, there is no reliable way for us to know either. A collection of evidence, a deal of it noticeably circumstantial mind you, does support the idea of Booth falling from his horse. The amount of evidence seems to be in favor of Kauffman's theory, but it still seems to come down to whether or not we believe Booth's word. Due to this, I’m sure the debate will always exist.

Dave,

I see these telegrams as better evidence of Booth breaking his leg at Ford's.

These telegrams are a reminder that these investigators had more evidence in 1865 than we have today. There must have been some rather convincing evidence of the break at Ford's that has been lost to history. How else would they have created the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's? We know, at this point, they didn't have Booth's diary. If the theory was based on supposition, it would be quite a coincidence that Booth made the same claim.

The problem is, whatever that evidence was, we don't have that evidence today. But whatever that evidence was, when these contemporary investigators weighed it against the evidence that Booth fell from his horse, it was convincing enough for them to conclude that Booth broke his leg at Ford's.

If his bones were exumed...would today's experts be able to say when the leg was broken and how?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 02-09-2013 06:21 PM by BettyO.)

(02-09-2013 06:15 PM)MaddieM Wrote:
(02-09-2013 12:52 PM)L Verge Wrote: Do you think Pecan Pie would survive the trip? We would just have to send instructions for the Red Eye Gravy to go over the grits. Same thing with Chicken and Waffles. And don't forget Pralines (definitely have to get them sent from Charleston, SC, however). What about Feather Bed Rolls? Maryland She-Crab Soup? Peanut Soup?

I make the most divine maple syrup and pecan fudge. It just melts in your mouth. I sell it over here in England. What ARE grits?

(02-06-2013 01:34 PM)wsanto Wrote:
(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: My problem with these telegrams is this, from where did the soldiers get their information? Booth was still on the run and no one had read his diary when these telegrams were written. Therefore, Wood and Waite could not have gotten their information from Booth's writings. What's more, the 2 out of the 3 telegrams mentioned the idea that Booth fell off of his horse, though they dismissed this. The only person at Bryantown at the time who could have told the soldiers such specific details of Booth's broken leg would have been Dr. Mudd. Yet Dr. Mudd never admitted to any knowledge of the assassination over his entire life, let alone in the early days of the investigation. His statements in Bryantown on the 21st recount the idea that Booth broke his leg from a fall off a horse. Had Mudd admitted that the man who showed up at his house broke his leg when he jumped from the box after shooting Lincoln, he would have been certainly executed for not turning in the man he knew to be Lincoln's assassin.

The way I see it, the language of William Wood's telegrams show that he was under the impression that Booth broke his leg when he jumped to the stage, even though he had no evidence for it. In fact, the lines, "it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning," demonstrates that he ignored evidence to the contrary to his opinion and continued to support his idea without merit. The subsequent telegram from Waite must have been influenced by Wood's assertions, even though they were unfounded.

I honestly don't know how to take these telegrams. While they don't technically weaken or support either of the theories, I believe that they demonstrate the danger of sticking to a belief even when faced with contrary evidence. The fact is, there was no reliable way for Wood and Waite to know Booth broke his leg in jumping from the stage. With the exception of Booth's diary, there is no reliable way for us to know either. A collection of evidence, a deal of it noticeably circumstantial mind you, does support the idea of Booth falling from his horse. The amount of evidence seems to be in favor of Kauffman's theory, but it still seems to come down to whether or not we believe Booth's word. Due to this, I’m sure the debate will always exist.

Dave,

I see these telegrams as better evidence of Booth breaking his leg at Ford's.

These telegrams are a reminder that these investigators had more evidence in 1865 than we have today. There must have been some rather convincing evidence of the break at Ford's that has been lost to history. How else would they have created the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's? We know, at this point, they didn't have Booth's diary. If the theory was based on supposition, it would be quite a coincidence that Booth made the same claim.

The problem is, whatever that evidence was, we don't have that evidence today. But whatever that evidence was, when these contemporary investigators weighed it against the evidence that Booth fell from his horse, it was convincing enough for them to conclude that Booth broke his leg at Ford's.

If his bones were exumed...would today's experts be able to say when the leg was broken and how?

Quote:I make the most divine maple syrup and pecan fudge. It just melts in your mouth. I sell it over here in England. What ARE grits?

Know this is OFF topic - but Maddie, I'll trade my Pumpkin Fudge (always a hit at every party and like you say - divine!) receipt for a copy of your Maple Syrup and Pecan Fudge receipt!

Grits are commonly made of corn known as hominy. Originally a Native American dish from Maize (corn) it has Southern Roots and is very akin to Cream of Wheat - I LOVE grits!

MaddieM · 02-09-2013, 06:27 PM

(02-09-2013 06:21 PM)BettyO Wrote:
(02-09-2013 06:15 PM)MaddieM Wrote:
(02-09-2013 12:52 PM)L Verge Wrote: Do you think Pecan Pie would survive the trip? We would just have to send instructions for the Red Eye Gravy to go over the grits. Same thing with Chicken and Waffles. And don't forget Pralines (definitely have to get them sent from Charleston, SC, however). What about Feather Bed Rolls? Maryland She-Crab Soup? Peanut Soup?

I make the most divine maple syrup and pecan fudge. It just melts in your mouth. I sell it over here in England. What ARE grits?

(02-06-2013 01:34 PM)wsanto Wrote:
(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: My problem with these telegrams is this, from where did the soldiers get their information? Booth was still on the run and no one had read his diary when these telegrams were written. Therefore, Wood and Waite could not have gotten their information from Booth's writings. What's more, the 2 out of the 3 telegrams mentioned the idea that Booth fell off of his horse, though they dismissed this. The only person at Bryantown at the time who could have told the soldiers such specific details of Booth's broken leg would have been Dr. Mudd. Yet Dr. Mudd never admitted to any knowledge of the assassination over his entire life, let alone in the early days of the investigation. His statements in Bryantown on the 21st recount the idea that Booth broke his leg from a fall off a horse. Had Mudd admitted that the man who showed up at his house broke his leg when he jumped from the box after shooting Lincoln, he would have been certainly executed for not turning in the man he knew to be Lincoln's assassin.

The way I see it, the language of William Wood's telegrams show that he was under the impression that Booth broke his leg when he jumped to the stage, even though he had no evidence for it. In fact, the lines, "it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning," demonstrates that he ignored evidence to the contrary to his opinion and continued to support his idea without merit. The subsequent telegram from Waite must have been influenced by Wood's assertions, even though they were unfounded.

I honestly don't know how to take these telegrams. While they don't technically weaken or support either of the theories, I believe that they demonstrate the danger of sticking to a belief even when faced with contrary evidence. The fact is, there was no reliable way for Wood and Waite to know Booth broke his leg in jumping from the stage. With the exception of Booth's diary, there is no reliable way for us to know either. A collection of evidence, a deal of it noticeably circumstantial mind you, does support the idea of Booth falling from his horse. The amount of evidence seems to be in favor of Kauffman's theory, but it still seems to come down to whether or not we believe Booth's word. Due to this, I’m sure the debate will always exist.

Dave,

I see these telegrams as better evidence of Booth breaking his leg at Ford's.

These telegrams are a reminder that these investigators had more evidence in 1865 than we have today. There must have been some rather convincing evidence of the break at Ford's that has been lost to history. How else would they have created the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's? We know, at this point, they didn't have Booth's diary. If the theory was based on supposition, it would be quite a coincidence that Booth made the same claim.

The problem is, whatever that evidence was, we don't have that evidence today. But whatever that evidence was, when these contemporary investigators weighed it against the evidence that Booth fell from his horse, it was convincing enough for them to conclude that Booth broke his leg at Ford's.

If his bones were exumed...would today's experts be able to say when the leg was broken and how?

Quote:I make the most divine maple syrup and pecan fudge. It just melts in your mouth. I sell it over here in England. What ARE grits?

Know this is OFF topic - but Maddie, I'll trade my Pumpkin Fudge (always a hit at every party and like you say - divine!) receipt for a copy of your Maple Syrup and Pecan Fudge receipt!

Grits are commonly made of corn known as hominy. Originally a Native American dish from Maize (corn) it has Southern Roots and is very akin to Cream of Wheat - I LOVE grits!

If that's like porridge, erk... porridge makes me heave. Yes, I'll pm you my recipe.

Sorry guys for being off topic... Undecided

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 02-09-2013 07:06 PM by L Verge.)

Okay, Betty - Now you have to bring a batch of both pumpkin fudge and maple syrup and pecan fudge to the conference. Maddie's fudge sounds like it might taste a bit like pralines.

The porridge I had in England was thinner than grits and had virtually no flavor. With plenty of butter (and I like a sprinkling of sugar), I think you would like grits.

Jim Page · 02-10-2013, 07:46 AM

(02-09-2013 06:53 PM)L Verge Wrote: With plenty of butter (and I like a sprinkling of sugar), I think you would like grits.

Since I'm one of the few non-butter eaters in the world, I prefer my grits with American or Cheddar cheese and plenty of salt and pepper.

--Jim

BettyO · 02-10-2013, 03:57 PM

(02-09-2013 06:53 PM)L Verge Wrote: Okay, Betty - Now you have to bring a batch of both pumpkin fudge and maple syrup and pecan fudge to the conference. Maddie's fudge sounds like it might taste a bit like pralines.

The porridge I had in England was thinner than grits and had virtually no flavor. With plenty of butter (and I like a sprinkling of sugar), I think you would like grits.

Laurie - you eat your grits like I eat mine - lots of butter and sugar!! I have been told that is the "Northern Virginia" method of eating grits.....

L Verge · 02-10-2013, 05:27 PM

It must go wider than that. My dad was from Gretna, Virginia, outside Danville and right on the Virginia-North Carolina border; and my mother was from Southern Maryland. They both ate grits the same way. That's a pretty wide swath.

wsanto · 02-10-2013, 10:11 PM

[quote='Dave Taylor' pid='12410' dateline='1360032996']
That's right I'm opening up the can of worms again!

First, a quick review:

Roger posted Michael Kauffman's article from the Blue and Gray laying out his theory regarding Booth's broken leg here.

John Elliott expanded on the ideas here.

I debated the idea that John Lloyd was told Booth broke his leg when his horse fell here.

While Kauffman uses the statements of David Herold and Dr. Mudd to support his theory, given the fact that they were co-conspirators who both tried to play ignorant of Booth's crime, nothing they said under examination can be taken at face value. Neither Dr. Mudd or Davy Herold could admit that Booth broke his leg while jumping to the stage after shooting the president, without implicating their knowledge of the events. Putting these statements aside, one major pro in Kauffman's theory are the statements of Thomas Davis, a farmhand on Mudd's farm. Davis noted that Booth's horse was, "lame in her front leg she was very lame before taken out of the stable" and had a "piece of skin off on the inside of the front left foreleg about as big as a silver quarter". This injury could be a result of Booth's horse falling, or perhaps the result of being ridden hard through rough, scratchy terrain.

I have always been on the fence about the two theories. To me, it always seemed to come down to when we wanted to believe Booth. Either we believe Booth through the words of Dr. Mudd and Davy Herold, or we believe what Booth wrote in his diary. There is an inherent unreliability with both. Dr. Mudd and Davy Herold both played dumb of Booth's crime when giving their statements to avoid further incrimination. Booth himself wrote in exaggerated statements in his diary. Forced between these two, believing Booth's own words seemed the lesser of two evils.

Recently, I have stumbled across a new aspect to the debate, which makes me cast more doubt on my previously held belief. I have a problem rectifying these telegrams (1 & 2, 3) describing Booth breaking his leg at the theatre.

Two of the telegrams are from Col. William Wood, who would later be in charge of Mary Surratt, Dr. Mudd and many witnesses and suspects in the Old Capital Prison. He writes in the morning of April 23rd, the following:

"There is no doubt but that Booth broke one of the bones in his leg in the jump on the stage of the theatre immediately after the murder."

Later the same day he sends the following:

"The assassins changed horses. Herold was riding the bay mare obtained from Pumphrey's Stable, and it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning."

The 3rd telegram, sent at 8 pm on April 23rd is from Major John Waite, who, like William Wood, is forwarding information gleaned from Brytantown. It says, in part:

"Booth fractured a bone of his leg in jumping upon the stage, not by falling near Bryantown."

My problem with these telegrams is this, from where did the soldiers get their information? Booth was still on the run and no one had read his diary when these telegrams were written. Therefore, Wood and Waite could not have gotten their information from Booth's writings...

The way I see it, the language of William Wood's telegrams show that he was under the impression that Booth broke his leg when he jumped to the stage, even though he had no evidence for it. In fact, the lines, "it may be possible that she fell or threw off Booth and broke his leg. However, I believe as I have written this morning," demonstrates that he ignored evidence to the contrary to his opinion and continued to support his idea without merit. The subsequent telegram from Waite must have been influenced by Wood's assertions, even though they were unfounded.
quote]

Dave,

These telegrams bring up a very interesting question for me. Perhaps the answer is well known already to historians but it has me dumbfounded. I could use some help.

How do you think William Wood came up with the theory that Booth broke his leg jumping to the stage prior to Booth's diary coming into evidence and making the same claim?

Was it speculated in the newspapers prior to Booth's diary entry? If so then Booth might have picked that theory up for his confessional account. If not, it would be quite a coincidence for Booth to make that claim after William Wood and others investigators in Bryantown felt fairly convinced of this theory.