Was Lincoln Baptized In Secret ?

[Gene C]

This video, which answers this question, was recently posted on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlcIEaqT1qU

Unfortunately, Sondra Hicks got it wrong. If you read the comments to the video, several of the viewers believe her story.

How do I know she got it wrong?
It's a long story that isn't new. She gives you some clues in her video.
I'll give you some time to research it for yourself if you want to.
Over the next few days I'll share with you what I found out.

Please feel free to add your comments. It's a shame how this kind of false history gets spread. We've seen it before, even by some of the former posters on this site.
Stay tuned in, don't worry. We'll sort this out.

[mbgross]

Thanks for sharing, Gene. Great topic! I will be interested in hearing your comments and those of others. My comments are based on my memory so more than likely there faulty. The book she is showing in the video has been labeled as unreliable. Even though I think RTL visited Mariah later in life and had fond memories of her.

The best book I ever read concerning Lincoln and religion was Richard Carwardine's "Lincoln" and for that matter one of the best overall biographies I ever read.

[Gene C]

You can certainly understand Ms. Hicks enthusiasm about her story.
If you watch the youtube video link you'll notice it starts with Sondra Hicks holding up a book titled "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life", edited by
Lloyd Ostendorf and Walter Oleksy.

Ms. Hicks indicates that according to this book, the same minister (Parson) that preached Nancy Hanks Lincoln's funeral (David Elkins per Dennis Hanks in Herndon's Informants) also baptized Abraham Lincoln after his first election for president, but before he left for Washington.

Part of the problem here is that David Elkins died in 1857 at the age of 77-78 (according to Find A Grave, below) That's 3 years before the alleged baptism.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/3020...vid-elkins[u]

But wait, there's more to follow......

[Rob Wick]

Ed Steers has an entire chapter on the Mariah Vance claim in his book Lincoln Legends. I don't think there is much meat to this claim. Here is a link to the pertinent chapter in Google books. Note: Scroll up to the table of contents and find Chapter Five. Click on the link and it will take you to the chapter.

Best
Rob

https://books.google.com/books?id=4SOr4P...ce&f=false

[Gene C]

Thanks Rob. I have that book, but I had forgotten that chapter. This is a good book, and you can find good used copies for less than $10
https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Legends-C...388&sr=1-1

Regarding the book "Lincoln's Unknown Private Life", The Amazon page shows they do not currently have any copies (new or used) available at this time.
https://www.amazon.com/Lincolns-Private-...226&sr=1-2

This is what the Editorial Reviews on Amazon have to say
"From Publishers Weekly
Mariah Vance, an African American, worked for Abraham Lincoln as a domestic in Springfield, Illinois, from 1850 to 1860. In 1900, Adah Sutton, a white teenager, took systematic notes on Vance's by then often-repeated stories of life with the future President. Those notes form the basis for the work reviewed here. Its authenticity has been questioned, but its contents are scarcely earthshaking. Vance's most controversial assertion, that Lincoln was secretly baptized by a Baptist minister after his election as President, remains unverifiable. Other anecdotes describe details of the Lincolns' domestic economy, the strained relations between Lincoln and his wife, the rise of local attorney Lincoln to national political prominence. The whole adds up to a buff book, an interesting addition to the body of Lincolniana. Photos not seen by PW.
Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.
From Library Journal
Lincoln scholars disagree as to the authenticity and accuracy of this manuscript purporting to be remembrances of Vance, a maid who worked for the Lincolns during the 1850s. Stories include Lincoln's "secret" baptism, Mary Lincoln's drug addiction and jealousy, and day-to-day family tensions all recounted by Vance years later to a woman named Ada Sutton, who kept shorthand notes of the tales. The transcription was sold to Lincolniana collector Ostendorf, who sought a publisher for this unique manuscript. As editor, journalist Olesky clarified the black English dialect of Vance and offered a historical perspective. Nonetheless, given questions about the book's provenance, it is not a recommended purchase.
Ann Owens, Wabash Valley Coll., Mt. Carmel, Ill.
Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Ouch!

It is available to borrow on Internet Archives - https://archive.org/details/lincolnsunkn...c/mode/2up

[Steve]

I would recommend reading this review by James O. Hall of Lincoln's Unknown Private Life:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262986...w=fulltext

---

Excellent topic, Gene!

[Anita]

Following Steve's link to James O. Halls review I would recommend reading "That Mariah Vance Book* Has No Place in My Library
AND SHOULDN'T BE IN YOURS" An essay by Charles A. Chapin

"Illinois State Historical Society materials coming to my hands when I joined the Advisory Board included a list of books for sale to members. I was astounded to see the Mariah Vance book listed for sale, and said the Society ought not to stock it, advertise it, or sell it. I had thought the credibility of this book had been laid to rest with Professor James O. Hall's review of it in the Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, (Winter issue, 1998). The wounded editors, Lloyd Ostendorf and Walter Olesky had replied, in separate statements, in the Louisiana Lincolnator, (Winter issue, 1998).

Professor Hall directed his criticism to historical and technical inaccuracies, a number of highly improbable events recounted, and the number of hands through which the text had passed before publication, leaving the reader to doubt that the account was really just what Vance told. I have another perspective on this, but before we get to that, let me show you the time-lines involved: ..."
Read the essay here: https://www.lib.niu.edu/2002/ih020516.html

[Gene C]

Thanks to Steve for posting the link for James O Hall's book review from the Winter 1998 edition of the Journal of Abraham Lincoln Association. (About 17 printed pages)
It's very good and worth the time to read it. Those 17 pages are full of information. It's almost overwhelming.

I was going to try to pick out key quotes from his review, but there are to many of them. Your better off taking the time and effort to read his entire review.

Good News - If this sounds like the type of book you might enjoy there are currently 2 used copies available on Amazon. and one from AbeBooks. They range from $45 - $66.
I have a little confession to make. AT this price of this questionable book, it was beyond my price range. After looking at the online copy of this last week, I did find and purchased a copy for $4.40 which I decided I could afford, even for a questionable book. (I've wasted that much on an Unhappy Meal from Burger Doodle) Shipped from a Chicago suburb, it's currently touring the US, detoured through Atlanta courtesy of the US Postal Service. Now the tracking number has mysteriously been deactivated, but I should receive my book sometime in the next 10 days. I'll keep you posted.

By the way, according to the James Hall review,
"When Adah Sutton died in an Attica nursing home on July 10, 1976, aged 92, no publisher had yet been found for her manuscript. Ostendorf acquired rights to the manuscript from Sutton's niece (by marriage), Iris Sutton. In 1977 he contracted with David Balsiger, a California writer and movie consultant, to find a publisher. Balsiger rewrote parts of the manuscript. It was this version, entitled "Mistah Abe," that was considered and rejected by Knopf in 1978."
my comment - It was about this time that Balisger completed the classic work "The Lincoln Conspiracy"

[Gene C]

(02-12-2025 12:26 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I'll keep you posted.

The book arrived yesterday. Its large with about 550 pages. It's a used book, in very good condition.

It consist of two sections,
1) Adah Suttons Manuscript of the Words of Mariah Vance, with editorial comments by Walter Oleksy (230 pages)
2) Facsimile Edition of Adah Suttons Complete Handwritten Manuscript Transcribed from the words of Mariah Vance (260 pages)

The 2nd section is all in cursive. While the handwriting is legible, it's small and not easy to read.
There is no index
15 pages of photos
A full book review will be coming later. Based upon previous posts, especially post 6, this one is not a high priority for me to read cover to cover.

[Steve]

Since I haven't read the book myself, I don't really want to comment on this just yet.

There is one thing I do think I can comment on since it's referred to in the Hall article. The article says the book says that Abraham Lincoln met the Vance family in Danville Illinois before heading to Washington. Supposedly the Vance family had moved there towards the end of 1860. In the article Hall demonstrates how that trip to Danville never happened. I'd like to add one more thing that Hall never knew. The Vance family didn't move to Danville until sometime in the 1870's, first appearing there in the 1880 census. Below I've copied the 1870 census record for the Vance family. (Note: Maria claimed to have been born in Illinois, so the Kentucky birthplace may be an error in the original census return.)

1870 Census

Name Maria Vance
Age in 1870 50
Birth Date abt 1820
Birthplace Kentucky
Dwelling No. 2042
Home in 1870 Springfield, Sangamon, Illinois
Race Black
Gender Female
Post Office Springfield
Occupation Keeping House


Household Members (Name) & Age

Maria Vance
50

Julia Vance
24

Narcisa Vance
23

Rose Vance
18

Neal Vance
13

William Vance
26

John Vance
14