Stephen Douglas Statue TO Be Removed ?

[Gene C]

Not surprised, hope they leave the one in Springfield's Old Capitol Building

http://westkentuckystar.com/News/State/I...pitol.aspx

[David Lockmiller]

(09-21-2020 06:46 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Not surprised, hope they leave the one in Springfield's Old Capitol Building

http://westkentuckystar.com/News/State/I...pitol.aspx

Without Stephen Douglas, there would have been no President Abraham Lincoln. It was Senator Douglas who orchestrated the repeal of the Missouri Compromise in exchange for the South’s support in fulfilling his personal ambition to be President of the United States. Abraham Lincoln was out of politics until the repeal of the Missouri Compromise, which acted as the bar on expansion of slavery in the United States. It was Lincoln’s run for the Illinois Senate seat against Douglas and the Lincoln-Douglas debates that made Abraham Lincoln a national figure on the issue of slavery. And, it was the subsequent division of the Democratic Party that permitted Abraham Lincoln to become President of the United States and also yielded the Republican Party in control of both Houses of Congress.

Thus, if there had been no Senator Stephen Douglas there would have come to be no President Abraham Lincoln leading the nation in this time of ultimate crisis for the Union. There would have been no longer a Union of the United States of America. Defeated in the election for President, Senator Douglas supported President Lincoln and did all he could do to preserve the Union until his death early in the Civil War.

We the People have experienced in previous national crises the Civil War itself, the Depression and World War II as a Union of States. President Lincoln described to John Hay this first major crisis in this national unity of States with these words as quoted from Team of Rivals at page 356: "I consider the central idea pervading this struggle," he told Hay in early May [1861], "is the necessity that is upon us, of proving that popular government is not an absurdity. We must settle this question now, whether in a free government the minority have the right to break up the government whenever they choose. If we fail it will go far to prove the incapability of the people to govern themselves."

[David Lockmiller]

(09-21-2020 06:46 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Not surprised, hope they leave the one in Springfield's Old Capitol Building

http://westkentuckystar.com/News/State/I...pitol.aspx

The author of the referenced Associated Press (AP) article appears to be a "Nikole Hannah-Jones wannabe." He or she writes in the second paragraph: "Just inside the Statehouse hangs another revered depiction of an Illinois legend — and longtime Douglas rival — who expressed white supremacist views: Abraham Lincoln."

I would suggest to this "Nikole Hannah-Jones wannabe" that he or she read Abraham Lincoln's words in the Lincoln-Douglas debates (occurring before the Civil War), the Emancipation Proclamation (occurring during the Civil War), and the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution (occurring near the end of the Civil War, passage secured primarily by President Lincoln's efforts and shortly before President Lincoln's death).

The Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution reads as follows:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or nay place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

In other words, there would have been no freedom from slavery for black Americans without the accomplishments in that regard by President Abraham Lincoln before and during the American Civil War. . . no matter what Nikole Hannah-Jones and her "wannabe's" say to the contrary.

[AussieMick]

If Lincoln did say the words quoted, and I think we must accept that he did, then he was indeed expressing the same views as white supremacists. ..... but I suspect that at least 99.99 % of all white men worldwide at that time would have agreed with him.

On a similar issue, I suggest the same number of all men (regardless of colour or religion ) would have considered women as being inferior or less capable of functioning as human beings than men.

In other words, Lincoln's words in 1854 to a crowd of political men have minimal relevance to the man that he became as President .

[RJNorton]

Here is one quote that I think fairly describes Abraham Lincoln's belief prior to becoming President:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

SOURCE: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois" (September 18, 1858), pp. 145-146.

Going by what Lincoln said in his final speech on April 11, 1865, I think he had somewhat modified his views by that point in his life.

[David Lockmiller]

(09-21-2020 02:15 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  We the People have experienced in previous national crises the Civil War itself, the Depression and World War II as a Union of States. President Lincoln described to John Hay this first major crisis in this national unity of States with these words as quoted from Team of Rivals at page 356: "I consider the central idea pervading this struggle," he told Hay in early May [1861], "is the necessity that is upon us, of proving that popular government is not an absurdity. We must settle this question now, whether in a free government the minority have the right to break up the government whenever they choose. If we fail it will go far to prove the incapability of the people to govern themselves."

"We all agree that the seceded States, so called, are out of their proper relation with the Union; and that the sole object of the government, civil and military, in regard to those States is to again get them into that proper practical relation. I believe it is not only possible, but in fact, easier to do this, without deciding, or even considering, whether these States have ever been out of the Union, than with it."

(Source: President Lincoln's last speech - April 11, 1865.)

---

(09-21-2020 06:58 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is one quote that I think fairly describes Abraham Lincoln's belief prior to becoming President:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

SOURCE: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois" (September 18, 1858), pp. 145-146.

Going by what Lincoln said in his final speech on April 11, 1865, I think he had somewhat modified his views by that point in his life.

President Lincoln's "somewhat modified" views as expressed in his April 11, 1865 speech:

"Some twelve thousand voters in the heretofore slave-state of Louisiana have sworn allegiance to the Union, assumed to be the rightful political power of the State, held elections, organized a State government, adopted a free-state constitution, giving the benefit of public schools equally to black and white, and empowering the Legislature to confer the elective franchise upon the colored man. Their Legislature has already voted to ratify the constitutional amendment recently passed by Congress, abolishing slavery throughout the nation. These twelve thousand persons are thus fully committed to the Union, and to perpetual freedom in the state--committed to the very things, and nearly all the things the nation wants--and they ask the nation's recognition and it's assistance to make good their committal.

. . . Concede that the new government of Louisiana is only to what it should be as the egg is to the fowl, we shall sooner have the fowl by hatching the egg than by smashing it?"

. . . "I repeat the question, 'Can Louisiana be brought into proper practical relation with the Union sooner by sustaining or by discarding her new State Government?'"

. . . "What has been said of Louisiana will apply generally to other States."

[Mylye2222]

So sad to see so much people unable to contextualize and so much presentism.