S.O.S

[L Verge]

Help - I may need a short version of the story that I have heard over the years of Mr. Lincoln tricking a companion into eating a persimmon that had not been sweetened by a hard frost. I'm doing a Facebook snippet on a 19th-century Persimmon Pudding recipe and an accompanying Persimmon Beer one. If there is space, I would like to include the Lincoln legend.

[Dave Taylor]

Laurie,

The story comes from Thomas Pendel's book, Thirty Six Years in the White House. The unfortunate gentleman tricked by Lincoln is none other than Charles Forbes who later sat outside the Presidential box at Ford's Theatre.

Here's a link to the corresponding pages in Pendel's book: https://archive.org/details/thirtysixyea...g/page/n46

[David Lockmiller]

(11-04-2019 08:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Help - I may need a short version of the story that I have heard over the years of Mr. Lincoln tricking a companion into eating a persimmon that had not been sweetened by a hard frost. I'm doing a Facebook snippet on a 19th-century Persimmon Pudding recipe and an accompanying Persimmon Beer one. If there is space, I would like to include the Lincoln legend.

Laurie, you may be thinking of the following story:

On one occasion, President Lincoln, when riding near the Soldiers’ Home, said to his footman, named Charles Forbes, who had but recently come from Ireland, “What kind of fruit do you have in Ireland, Charles?” To which Charles replied, “Mr. President, we have a good many kinds of fruit: gooseberries, pears, apples, and the like.” The president then asked, “Have you tasted any of our American fruits?”

Charles said he had not, and the president told Burke, the coachman, to drive under a persimmon tree by the roadside. Standing up in the open carriage, he pulled off some of the green (unripe) fruit, giving some of it to Burke and some to Charles, with the advice that the latter try some of it. Charles, taking some of the green fruit in his hand, commenced to eat, when to his astonishment he found that he could hardly open his mouth. Trying his best to spit it out, he yelled, “Mr. President, I am poisoned! I am poisoned!” Mr. Lincoln fairly fell back in his carriage and rolled with laughter.

Story source is from "Lincoln and the Irish: The Untold Story of How the Irish Helped Abraham Lincoln . . .” by Niall O’Dowd

Laurie, you better be careful about using this source. This same story was also printed on page 650 of "Lincoln Talks, A Biography in Anecdote," which itself has been proven to be an unreliable source for Lincoln stories. Perhaps Niall O'Dowd used this Emanuel Hertz story for his book quoted above.

[L Verge]

(11-04-2019 09:46 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(11-04-2019 08:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Help - I may need a short version of the story that I have heard over the years of Mr. Lincoln tricking a companion into eating a persimmon that had not been sweetened by a hard frost. I'm doing a Facebook snippet on a 19th-century Persimmon Pudding recipe and an accompanying Persimmon Beer one. If there is space, I would like to include the Lincoln legend.

Laurie, you may be thinking of the following story:

On one occasion, President Lincoln, when riding near the Soldiers’ Home, said to his footman, named Charles Forbes, who had but recently come from Ireland, “What kind of fruit do you have in Ireland, Charles?” To which Charles replied, “Mr. President, we have a good many kinds of fruit: gooseberries, pears, apples, and the like.” The president then asked, “Have you tasted any of our American fruits?”

Charles said he had not, and the president told Burke, the coachman, to drive under a persimmon tree by the roadside. Standing up in the open carriage, he pulled off some of the green (unripe) fruit, giving some of it to Burke and some to Charles, with the advice that the latter try some of it. Charles, taking some of the green fruit in his hand, commenced to eat, when to his astonishment he found that he could hardly open his mouth. Trying his best to spit it out, he yelled, “Mr. President, I am poisoned! I am poisoned!” Mr. Lincoln fairly fell back in his carriage and rolled with laughter.

Story source is from "Lincoln and the Irish: The Untold Story of How the Irish Helped Abraham Lincoln . . .” by Niall O’Dowd

Laurie, you better be careful about using this source. This same story was also printed on page 650 of "Lincoln Talks, A Biography in Anecdote," which itself has been proven to be an unreliable source for Lincoln stories. Perhaps Niall O'Dowd used this Emanuel Hertz story for his book quoted above.

Thank you, David, this is just what I was looking for -- and I already planned on introducing it as one of many anecdotes about Lincoln that may or may not be true.

[David Lockmiller]

(11-05-2019 09:52 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Thank you, David, this is just what I was looking for -- and I already planned on introducing it as one of many anecdotes about Lincoln that may or may not be true.

This story is true. Dave Taylor wrote in his post (while I was working on mine):

"The story comes from Thomas Pendel's book, Thirty Six Years in the White House. The unfortunate gentleman tricked by Lincoln is none other than Charles Forbes who later sat outside the Presidential box at Ford's Theatre."

Thank you, Dave Taylor, for providing a link to this book passage in your post. On the night of Lincoln's assassination, it was Thomas Pendel who took care of Tad after receiving the news of his father's death (touching to read).

[Gene C]

I just read Tomas Pendel's account of the night of the assassination. (Dave Taylors link in post #2)
David Lockmiller is right, it's touching to read.

The whole book looks like it's well worth reading.

[L Verge]

Thank you to Davids x 2. I had forgotten that the victim was Forbes. For those of you who have seen the photo of Forbes, you are probably giggling at the thought of this "walrus of a man" flailing in pain and fear.

[RJNorton]

Laurie, the original source for this story is Francis P. Burke (as told to Tom Pendel). Burke is the same man who drove the Lincoln party to Ford's Theatre on the night of April 14, 1865. One thing I've noticed about Burke is all the differences in spellings depending on which source or book one is reading. He has been referred to as Edward “Ned” Burke, Ned Burke, Francis Burns, Edward Burke, Francis Bourke, and Francis P. Burke. One White House employee referred to him as "Old Edward." John Fazio has studied the situation and concluded the correct name for Lincoln's coachman was Francis P. Burke.

I checked the Fehrenbachers' Recollected Words, and although Pendel is mentioned, this story of what Lincoln said to Forbes is not. Thus, there is no rating for the veracity Lincoln's words. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the story rings true. (Nevertheless, as a general rule of thumb, I agree 100% with David with respect to employing caution when using Hertz as a source.)

[L Verge]

Thanks, Roger. Even if I can't add this to our govt's Facebook, I'm going to rework it into something for the Surratt Facebook (go to surrattmuseum.org and click on Facebook to see some really good articles).

P.S. I just have one "elderly" comment about the yoinger generations and their insisting on miniscule blurbs on social media - not to mention the alphabet substitutions for words. The keepers of our gov't's Facebook hold posts to less than 150 words. Whoever learned decent history in 150 words? What would they do if Einstein wanted to share his Theories of Relativity on Facebook? How do millenials handle doctoral theses? With tongue in cheek - OMG!

[David Lockmiller]

(11-05-2019 05:13 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I checked the Fehrenbachers' Recollected Words, and although Pendel is mentioned, this story of what Lincoln said to Forbes is not. Thus, there is no rating for the veracity Lincoln's words. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the story rings true.

Roger, I don't know how much it will count on the credibility scale, but the next paragraph in the Pendel book following the telling of the persimmon story reads:

"This story was afterward told by the coachman, justifying himself upon the grounds that it was too good to keep."

---

(11-05-2019 01:46 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I just read Tomas Pendel's account of the night of the assassination. (Dave Taylors link in post #2)
David Lockmiller is right, it's touching to read.

The whole book looks like it's well worth reading.

For those who might be interested in reading this specific section, follow the Dave Taylor's link in post #2 and then flip to pages 44-45.