Assasination relics: Clothing, chairs, death-scene stuff, and other macabre items

[DKEast]

How did Milford PA, way up the Delaware River, almost at NY border, come to possess one of these flags? I have been to Milford but never knew the Columns Museum had a flag!

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(06-27-2016 07:28 AM)Diane T. Putney Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 09:36 AM)Tim1965 Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 08:25 AM)J. Beckert Wrote:  Hello, Tim. You need to hear from forum members Rich Smythe and Jim Garrett - the Assassination relic gurus.

I believe they have a book out on this and Rich also has some information on the box itself. If I remember right, it was there until maybe the collapse, but was boarded off.

Hope they chime in.

I've read very little about the post-1865 office renovations, just what's in George Olszeweski's Restoration of Ford's Theatre. And he does't describe in any real depth the changes to the building from theatre to office building in late 1865. (Were one or both boxes ripped out? Did Richard Dunbar extend the Dress Circle and/or Family Circle across the open space of the auditorium to create full floors, or did he just enclose them? Or where Dunbar's changes more minimal than even that?)

As for locks of hair.... One would think Lincoln went to the grave bald, given the vast amount of Lincoln hair floating about.

I have researched the pre- and post-assassination Ford’s Theatre, so perhaps I can provide some information about the building that may be helpful. I think the idea of the preservation of the presidential box beyond 1865 is a myth.
After the government seized the theater and leased it from Ford, the building was gutted. Internally it was a shell. Gone were the stage, overhead walkways, proscenium arch, presidential box and other boxes, dress circle, family circle, and dome. The orchestra and parquette ground floor was torn away.
Richard Dunbar from Brooklyn won the bidding competition against nine other contractors and internally was to construct a “fire-proof building.” Part of the standard fireproofing process was to construct concrete and brick floors instead of wooden floors. After constructing a massive brick foundation in the cellar and building the first floor, Dunbar brought in subcontracted experts to set up the iron framework of columns, girders, and beams to support the heavy second and third floors.
The presidential box was built into the proscenium arch, which framed the stage. When that arch was torn out, the box was necessarily dismantled. Ford was allowed to keep salvageable parts of the arch, which he thought “only valuable as fire wood,” and the iron columns. Nothing of the foundational architecture of the box, the framing of the box, remained in the building. None of the statements of work about the renovation or the records from the files of the quartermaster general, in charge of the project, mentioned preserving, working around, or reinstalling the box.
The original purpose of the renovation was to construct a “giant warehouse” for the “Rebel Archives,” the captured Confederate records under the supervision of Francis Lieber.
The renovation consisted of two stages from 1) theater to warehouse and from 2) warehouse to museum/office building. Once the Army surgeon general asked Secretary Stanton for the building in late November and early December 1865, and he agreed, additional construction had to occur, such as installing a boiler and heating system. Dunbar only worked on the first, main stage of the renovation, and he did more than just build floors.
I think the myth of the box’s preservation started when the Evening Star in October 1865 stated plainly that the presidential box “has been preserved entire, and will be placed as near as possible in its former position.”
This incorrect news article had credibility because the lease stated that if by February 1, 1866 the government did not purchase the building outright, Ford would get it back in its original condition. The government, for example, stored the audience chairs in a warehouse in case of a give-back. Stanton had to wait until Congress reconvened and appropriated the money before he could buy the building.
I have looked at many 19th century government reports and news articles about the 1893 collapse, but found no reference to the presidential box in the rubble.
In 1942 the assistant director of the National Park Service learned from Ford’s grandson that the box was not preserved by the family and that “the only preserved section of the box is the door, already donated to the museum.”
I’m a bit embarrassed about the long entry here, but I hope it helps to clarify what happened to the box and theater.

Good stuff!! I just assumed IF anything remained, it was destroyed in the interior collapse in 1893.

[Finnigan]

(06-24-2016 10:15 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  At this time, Rich & I are working incredibly long hours and the relic book is on the back burner for a little while. We are looking at the possibility of self publishing the relic book as an ebook, but it still is a little ways off.

I know a small publisher who specializes in historical publications who would probably be interested. They could publish your book in paperback or hardback, and have it for sale in the museums at Washington as well as Springfield.

[Rsmyth]

Concerning "The Lincoln Flag" in Milford, PA; central to the story is Thomas Gourlay, utility actor and stage manager. There were several Gourlay family members present the evening of assassination including daughter Jeannie. The "story" is that after the assassination Thomas took the flag decorating the box. Returning to Brooklyn, NY he gave the relic to Jeannie prior to his death. Jeannie had married another actor whose family lived in Milford and they purchased a home there as well. After Jeannie's death the flag was acquired by her son, Vivian Paul Struthers who donated the item with other stage memorabilia to the Pike County Historical Society where it is on display as the showcase of the museum. I believe the story is at best, lore and family legend - at worst, made up by a former curator of the museum.

[Steve]

(07-09-2018 11:51 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Concerning "The Lincoln Flag" in Milford, PA; central to the story is Thomas Gourlay, utility actor and stage manager. There were several Gourlay family members present the evening of assassination including daughter Jeannie. The "story" is that after the assassination Thomas took the flag decorating the box. Returning to Brooklyn, NY he gave the relic to Jeannie prior to his death. Jeannie had married another actor whose family lived in Milford and they purchased a home there as well. After Jeannie's death the flag was acquired by her son, Vivian Paul Struthers who donated the item with other stage memorabilia to the Pike County Historical Society where it is on display as the showcase of the museum. I believe the story is at best, lore and family legend - at worst, made up by a former curator of the museum.

This blog post quotes a 1914 interview of Jeannie Gourlay that I've never seen before and goes more in depth than the other newspaper interviews of Gourlay I've found and posted to the forum before:

http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2012/11/jean...never-was/

I still don't believe the Pike Co. flag story but I think the parts of the interview quoted in the post are interesting and worth sharing

[RJNorton]

Thanks to Steve for sending this 1880 interview with William Withers. The article is from page 2 of the 29 May 1880 edition of the Hamilton County Democrat of Noblesville, Indiana. Steve writes, "In the article Withers said a flag belonging to one member of his orchestra, Pedro/Peter Taltavull (calling him an Italian instead of a Spaniard), was used to decorate the Presidential box. After the assassination, the flag ended up in Withers' possession where he had it for many years before returning it to Taltavull. Withers would've still had the flag in 1867 when he and Jeannie Gourlay divorced. In the newspaper interviews of Gourlay that I've read, she doesn't mention owning the flag or mention her father retrieving the flag from the box or the flag being used to rest Lincoln's head. I propose that Jeannie may have mentioned to her children that she once possessed one of the flags from the box and decades later it morphed into the Struthers family story about her father taking the flag from the box after it was used to rest Lincoln's head with the story being attached to that other flag which was owned by the Struthers family and which is now on display at the Pike Co. museum."

[Rsmyth]

I would take anything Withers said with a grain of salt. He not only embellished but made things up and that was right after the assassination, not 40 – 50 years after.
The flag that Withers said he received from Peter Taltavull, which during the assassination was cut by Booth’s spur was in reality the Treasury Guard Regimental flag currently on display at Ford’s Theater. This flag was obtained from the Treasury Department and hung vertically in the center of the box by Harry Ford prior to Lincoln’s visit.
After the assassination the relic was returned to the Treasury and displayed outside the office of the Treasury Secretary. At some point the flag came into the possession of Emory S. Turner of the Treasury Guard who finally gave the flag to his daughter, Marie Turner Gavit of Santa Barbara, CA. She bequeathed the flag to the National Park Service in November 1932. At that time Emory was still living at 840 Park Avenue in New York City.
In regards to Jeannie Gourlay informing any family members of the relic, I interviewed Thomas Gourlay, the grandson of Thomas C. Gourlay (brother of Jeannie) who was also present at Ford’s Theater. It is to be remembered that Jeannie, Thomas and William Withers returned to the Gourlay home after the shooting and discussed the nights events along with Withers showing everyone the knife cuts in his jacket. There was no mention of the flag. In fact Thomas Gourlay (grandson) told me that the Gourlay family on Long Island and the Bronx, New York was very surprised to read about the flag in the newspapers in 1954 when the story appeared of the flag being donated to the Pike County Historical Society by Vivian Paul Struthers (Jeannie’s son). No one in the extended Gourlay family had ever mentioned a flag. Many of the Gourlay family travelled to Milford, PA to see the flag on display in the museum.
In the early 1900’s journalist Hamilton Busby travelled to Milford to interview Jeannie about the assassination. She described the event and her recollections of Booth, whom she knew. But, she never mentioned a flag.

[L Verge]

Just a little info on Peter Taltavull (note family's spelling) for those not too familiar with him:

Hi Laurie, My husband and I have inherited the family genealogy and we are in the process of going through it all. For now I will share what it says on the back of the photo I uploaded to my profile. "Pedro Taltavull (Peter) was born ca. 1826 in Port Mahon, Isle of Minorca, Balearic Island, East Coast of Spain (although another source says he was born in 1825 in Barcelona). Peter came to America on board the US Frigate "Brandywine" with 11 others. He enlisted in USMC, 11 Aug 1842 at Washington, DC, and was assigned to the Marine Band. He married Elizabeth Evans of VA in 1845 and had 9 children. He served in the USMC 23 yrs (except for 1961-64) when he co-owned The Star Saloon and Restaurant. He re-enlisted 10 Mar 1865, 24 days prior to President Lincoln's assassination. He retired from the USMC 10 Mar 1869. Census lists his various occupations as: owned variety store, restaurant in home, cabinet-maker, paper-hanger, upholsterer, furniture repair. We understand that he lost his business (Star Saloon) after the assassination of the President. He started making cabinets and caskets. *His descendents had funeral establishments (Taltavull Funeral Home) in Washington, DC for 100 years (1883-1983).*

*Correction: We believe that Peter started the funeral home in the late 1870's.

[Steve]

Laurie, Thanks for the information on Taltavull and his family. I looked at local DC records and Taltavull stayed in Washington the whole time and didn't go to Memphis as Withers said in the interview.

Withers' interview's account of Spangler also contradicts his court testimony where he testified that he did not see Spangler at all that night:

https://archive.org/stream/trialofallege...8/mode/2up

Rich, whatever exaggerations Withers gave in his newspaper accounts, he was clearly describing one of the American flags decorating the box, not Treasury Guard flag in the center above the image of Washington. Why would his orchestra use a Treasury Guard flag or Taltavull, who was in the Marines even have one? Withers also doesn't explain how he came into possession of Taltavull's flag if the story is true.


https://www.fords.org/lincolns-assassina...colns-box/

The flag on the pole on the right of the image was the other Treasury Guard flag that's currently held by the Connecticut Historical Society, but the other three flags, if they still exist, whereabouts haven't been verified yet.

[Rsmyth]

Harry Ford testified after the assassination on May 31st 1865 that he placed the Treasury Guard blue regimental flag in the center of the two boxes. That is the flag now known as "the spur torn flag" on exhibit at Ford' Theater. Your article (above) references the flag Withers had in his possession as the one torn by Booth's spur. So Withers was clearly mistaken.

The Treasury Guard Presentation flag is as you state on display at the Ct Historical Society in Hartford.

The third third flag from the Treasury Dept. was the national flag. That flag was placed in a frame and covered with some type of varnish to preserve it. It was displayed in the Treasury Dept. until 1939 when it was transferred to the National Park Service. The relic had deteriorated greatly and except for a few scraps it was disposed off. About 1980 Lincoln assassination expert and author, Edward Steers Jr. was researching the "Lincoln Vault", when he came across "fragments of a silk flag with the notation that it was on the balustrade at Ford's and the flag that tripped up Booth". That notation is in all likelihood incorrect as eyewitness accounts state Booth caught his spur in the flag hanging vertically in the center of the box, not hung on the balustrade.

An American flag was obtained from local booksellers Blanchard and Mohan (or Mohren), by Ford's property manager, James L. Maddox. After the assassination it was returned to the book firm. That flag was given to W.B. Blanchard family friend or cousin James K. Moore then to Willian C. Scheide of Hartford, CT. who gave it to his cousin Virginia Moore Vail, then living in California. The trail goes cold after that.

In 1898 Blanchard stated that four of the flags came from the Treasury Dept. with the fifth coming from his firm.

Of course most everything regarding the flags is conjecture.

[L Verge]

(07-14-2018 07:06 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Harry Ford testified after the assassination on May 31st 1865 that he placed the Treasury Guard blue regimental flag in the center of the two boxes. That is the flag now known as "the spur torn flag" on exhibit at Ford' Theater. Your article (above) references the flag Withers had in his possession as the one torn by Booth's spur. So Withers was clearly mistaken.

The Treasury Guard Presentation flag is as you state on display at the Ct Historical Society in Hartford.

The third third flag from the Treasury Dept. was the national flag. That flag was placed in a frame and covered with some type of varnish to preserve it. It was displayed in the Treasury Dept. until 1939 when it was transferred to the National Park Service. The relic had deteriorated greatly and except for a few scraps it was disposed off. About 1980 Lincoln assassination expert and author, Edward Steers Jr. was researching the "Lincoln Vault", when he came across "fragments of a silk flag with the notation that it was on the balustrade at Ford's and the flag that tripped up Booth". That notation is in all likelihood incorrect as eyewitness accounts state Booth caught his spur in the flag hanging vertically in the center of the box, not hung on the balustrade.

An American flag was obtained from local booksellers Blanchard and Mohan (or Mohren), by Ford's property manager, James L. Maddox. After the assassination it was returned to the book firm. That flag was given to W.B. Blanchard family friend or cousin James K. Moore then to Willian C. Scheide of Hartford, CT. who gave it to his cousin Virginia Moore Vail, then living in California. The trail goes cold after that.

In 1898 Blanchard stated that four of the flags came from the Treasury Dept. with the fifth coming from his firm.

Of course most everything regarding the flags is conjecture.

What a great, detailed analysis of the "flag, flag, who's got the flag?" saga, Rich. Thank you. I have a difficult time accepting the Pike County version, and when the society there wanted to offer it as a traveling exhibit to raise money, I was a bit irritated. Even if we had been convinced that the flag was "authentic," the fee and the costs for security, display, etc. would have been too much to bear.

[Steve]

(07-13-2018 04:08 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks to Steve for sending this 1880 interview with William Withers. The article is from page 2 of the 29 May 1880 edition of the Hamilton County Democrat of Noblesville, Indiana. Steve writes, "In the article Withers said a flag belonging to one member of his orchestra, Pedro/Peter Taltavull (calling him an Italian instead of a Spaniard), was used to decorate the Presidential box. After the assassination, the flag ended up in Withers' possession where he had it for many years before returning it to Taltavull. Withers would've still had the flag in 1867 when he and Jeannie Gourlay divorced. In the newspaper interviews of Gourlay that I've read, she doesn't mention owning the flag or mention her father retrieving the flag from the box or the flag being used to rest Lincoln's head. I propose that Jeannie may have mentioned to her children that she once possessed one of the flags from the box and decades later it morphed into the Struthers family story about her father taking the flag from the box after it was used to rest Lincoln's head with the story being attached to that other flag which was owned by the Struthers family and which is now on display at the Pike Co. museum."

Withers may have meant to refer to fellow orchestra member Scipione Grillo, a Sicilian immigrant, rather than Peter Taltavull as the person who supposedly loaned the flag. Grillo was living in Memphis in 1866, but I don't think Taltavull left Washington.

[Steve]

In regards to my last post, please see this thread (post #18) about Withers and Grillo in Memphis:

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...l#pid72526