Extra Credit Questions

[RJNorton]

Yes, Eva, it is from Faust! Very good. Now what's the name of the music from Faust that became a favorite of Lincoln's?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Nope, unfortunately isn't one of my two favorites from "Faust" (BTW, here, the opera goes by the title "Margarethe") - doesn't sound like the famous waltz:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVKhV8g_sfg
(This is the Semperoper in Dresden btw.)

...and it definitely isn't the gorgeous Walpurgisnight - scene which was added to the beginning of the last act in 1869, where Mephistopheles shows Faust the folk celebration before May Day (still top traditional night to celebrate and dance here), when the souls of the dead are released briefly to wander as they will. George Balanchine did the best job on this one...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3mTBtTOZ8

In other words - I don't know...

[RJNorton]

(02-19-2019 07:24 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Nope, unfortunately isn't one of my two favorites from "Faust" (BTW, here, the opera goes by the title "Margarethe") - doesn't sound like the famous waltz:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVKhV8g_sfg

...and it definitely isn't the gorgeous Walpurgisnight - scene which was added to the beginning of the last act in 1869, where Mephistopheles shows Faust the folk celebration before May Day (still top traditional night to celebrate and dance here), when the souls of the dead are released briefly to wander as they will. George Balanchine did the best job on this one...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3mTBtTOZ8

In other words - I don't know...

You are still the winner, Eva, as you got Faust. Lincoln saw Faust at least twice, and one of the times the Lincolns were accompanied by the Sewards.

For the answer, please see Laurie's post here.

Also, on this page
http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/...and-music/
it says, "Lincoln enjoyed many operas, including Gounod’s ‘Faust,’ whose famous ‘Soldiers’ Chorus’ was a special favorite."

Here is the Soldiers Chorus on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW-6HMenF74

[Eva Elisabeth]

Wow, here I would have recognized Gounod. In the other I'm afraid I didn't. Seems to be from Toulouse. I wonder if Lincoln read Faust (Goethe at all).
"In the end, you are – what you are.
Set your hair in a thousand curlicues
Place your feet in yard-high shoes,
You’ll remain forever, what you are" (said Mephistopheles.)

[L Verge]

Somewhere (maybe in Tom's book on presidents at the theater), I remember a story of Tad going to one of the plays with his father and slipping backstage - only to appear on stage dressed as a ragamuffin by the actors and crew. When he realized it was Tad, Lincoln let out a loud laugh and Tad ran into his arms, much to the delight of the audience.

Did I dream this?

[RJNorton]

You did not dream this, Laurie.

The following is from pp. 188-189 of Lincoln's Sons by Ruth Painter Randall:

"One incident was told by the comedian John T. Raymond, who took park in the play involved, a burlesque called Pocahontas. In those days, when the soldiers caught a pickpocket, they would placard him – ‘This is a pickpocket’–and make him walk along the streets of Washington to the tune of the ‘Rogue’s March.’ The play burlesqued such a scene. Tad had come with his father to see Pocahontas and went backstage as usual. The actor said he was a jolly little fellow; everybody liked him,’ and someone had the bright idea of dressing him in a very ragged outfit and sending him on the stage with a mob in one of the scenes. Mr. Lincoln, sitting unnoticed in his box, suddenly saw Tad and broke into a hearty laugh. He threw up his hands in a mock gesture of dismay and then let one hand drop over the side of the box. The audience, hitherto unaware of the President’s presence, recognized that long, bony hand, for ‘there was no hand in the world like Mr. Lincoln’s.’ They set up a shout for him and he had to come to the front of the box and make a bow. When Tad returned, his father threw his arms around him in delight. ‘The pleasure, the affection of the father was so intense, so spontaneous…it was glorious to see him."

[David Lockmiller]

(02-20-2019 04:52 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  You did not dream this, Laurie.

The following is from pp. 188-189 of Lincoln's Sons by Ruth Painter Randall:

"One incident was told by the comedian John T. Raymond, who took park in the play involved, a burlesque called Pocahontas. In those days, when the soldiers caught a pickpocket, they would placard him – ‘This is a pickpocket’–and make him walk along the streets of Washington to the tune of the ‘Rogue’s March.’ The play burlesqued such a scene. Tad had come with his father to see Pocahontas and went backstage as usual. The actor said he was a jolly little fellow; everybody liked him,’ and someone had the bright idea of dressing him in a very ragged outfit and sending him on the stage with a mob in one of the scenes. Mr. Lincoln, sitting unnoticed in his box, suddenly saw Tad and broke into a hearty laugh. He threw up his hands in a mock gesture of dismay and then let one hand drop over the side of the box. The audience, hitherto unaware of the President’s presence, recognized that long, bony hand, for ‘there was no hand in the world like Mr. Lincoln’s.’ They set up a shout for him and he had to come to the front of the box and make a bow. When Tad returned, his father threw his arms around him in delight. ‘The pleasure, the affection of the father was so intense, so spontaneous…it was glorious to see him."

Wonderful story, Roger.

I was just thinking this morning about something I read recently about Nicolay. Hay and Nicolay referred to Mary as the "Hellcat." But when Nicolay tried to complain to Lincoln about Mary, Lincoln cut him off. (See "Team of Rivals" at page 705.)

My thinking on this is that Mary was not going to change. The danger of complaining about Mary to Mary had the potential of severely disrupting the family relationship that gave Lincoln pleasure as exemplified by your story.

[Eva Elisabeth]

It seems a bit strange to me for an adult to complain about the wife of his boss. "Mr. President, your wife doesn't treat me well, that's not nice of her!"? What would you have done in Lincoln's place? "Mary, please, Hay is taboo, or you go to bed without supper..."? Reminds me of my childhood. When other kids got attacked (verbally or physically) by (again) other kids, they used to run to their parents to have those solve that for them (scold the attacker). My mother would never have meddled in - she told me I were old enough to handle that myself, and that in most cases there were two sides involved in the evoking of a dispute. I wonder if Hay sometimes lacked diplomacy in dealing with Mary. My best guess is he occasionally had a loose tongue that some females of a certain age don't cope well with. Or misunderstand.
Sometimes, with some people it is just smarter to hold back on certain things that aren't worth a war. Some people who can be wonderful in many (other) ways just in some ways need to be treated with diplomacy because of some shortcomings on their part. Lincoln knew that, and how to deal the best with such people. It's a matter of what it's worth it.
(And if Hay was bothered that much he could have drawn consequences instead of just complaining - "Either she stops xy, or I quit", and do so if no change.)

[David Lockmiller]

(02-20-2019 05:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  It seems a bit strange to me for an adult to complain about the wife of his boss.

It was Nicolay, not Hay, that tried to speak with Lincoln about Mary.

Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote in "Team of Rivals" at page 705 one paragraph on this subject:

By the spring of 1865, Nicolay, soon to marry Therena Bates, was contemplating the purchase of a newspaper in Washington or Baltimore, while Hay wanted time for his studies and his active social life, too long constrained by fourteen-hour workdays. While they would both miss Lincoln, they were glad to escape the constant struggles with Mary -- the "Hellcat," as they irreverently called her -- who still resented their claims on her husband's attention. Indeed, soon after Lincoln's reelection, Mary had enlisted the help of Dr. Anson Henry in an effort to replace Nicolay with the journalist Noah Brooks. Nicolay had apparently tried to talk with Lincoln about his problems with Mary, but the president had refused any such discussion.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Sorry, I just skimmed it yesterday (and Hay was in the paragraph above), yet it doesn't do much to the weirdness of wanting to discuss with your boss about his wife. If you were the boss, would you discuss your wife with your employee? When he was about to leave anyway? (I think Lincoln had way more important negotiations to pay attention to.) Despite while Hay had a loose tongue Nicolay seemed a bit grumpy and possibly not someone easy (easily?) to deal with either. Stoddard had no problems with Mary. There's always two sides.

[David Lockmiller]

(02-20-2019 04:52 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  You did not dream this, Laurie.

The following is from pp. 188-189 of Lincoln's Sons by Ruth Painter Randall:

[S]omeone had the bright idea of dressing [Tad] in a very ragged outfit and sending him on the stage with a mob in one of the scenes. Mr. Lincoln, sitting unnoticed in his box, suddenly saw Tad and broke into a hearty laugh. He threw up his hands in a mock gesture of dismay and then let one hand drop over the side of the box. The audience, hitherto unaware of the President’s presence, recognized that long, bony hand, for ‘there was no hand in the world like Mr. Lincoln’s.’ They set up a shout for him and he had to come to the front of the box and make a bow. When Tad returned, his father threw his arms around him in delight. ‘The pleasure, the affection of the father was so intense, so spontaneous…it was glorious to see him."

The door swung both ways.

F.B. Carpenter:

The day after review of Burnside's division, some photographers from Brady's Gallery came up to the White House to make some stereoscopic studies for me of the President's office. They requested a dark closet, in which to develop the pictures; and without a thought that I was infringing upon anybody's rights, I took them to an unoccupied room of which little "Tad" had taken possession a few days before, and with the aid of a couple of servants, had fitted up as a miniature theatre, with stage, curtains, orchestra, stalls, parquette, and all. Knowing that the use required would interfere with none of his arrangement, I led the way to this apartment.

Everything went on well, and one or two pictures had been taken, when suddenly there was an uproar. The operator came back to the office, and said that "Tad" had taken great offence at the occupation of his room without his consent, and had locked the door, refusing all admission. The chemicals had been taken inside, and there was no way of getting at them, he having carried off the key. In the midst of this conversation, "Tad" burst in, in a fearful passion. He laid all the blame upon me, --said that I had no right to use his room, and that the men should not go in even to get their things. He had locked the door, and they should not go there again -- "they had no business in his room!" Mr. Lincoln had been sitting for a photograph, and was still sitting in a chair. He said, very mildly, "Tad, go and unlock the door." Tad went off muttering into his mother's room, refusing to obey. I followed him into the passage, but no coaxing would pacify him. Upon my return to the President, I found him still sitting patiently in the chair, from which he had not risen. He said: "Has not the boy opened the door?" I replied that we could do nothing with him, -- he has gone off in a great pet. Mr. Lincoln's lips came together firmly, and then, suddenly rising, he strode across the passage with the air of one bent on punishment, and disappeared in the domestic apartments. Directly he returned with the key to the theatre, which he unlocked himself. "There," said he, "go ahead, it is all right now." He then went back to his office, followed by myself, and resumed his seat. "Tad," said he, half apologetically, "is a peculiar child." He was violently excited when I went to him. I said, 'Tad, do you know you are making your father a great deal of trouble?' He burst into tears, instantly giving me up the key."

-- Six Months at the White House at pages 91-92.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I post this here as it is related to some recent trivia questions - interesting site on presidents and music:
https://www.wfmt.com/2016/11/07/classica...istration/

[David Lockmiller]

(02-23-2019 12:50 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 04:52 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  You did not dream this, Laurie.

The following is from pp. 188-189 of Lincoln's Sons by Ruth Painter Randall:

When Tad returned, his father threw his arms around him in delight. ‘The pleasure, the affection of the father was so intense, so spontaneous…it was glorious to see him."

The door swung both ways.

F.B. Carpenter:

Mr. Lincoln's lips came together firmly, and then, suddenly rising, he strode across the passage with the air of one bent on punishment, and disappeared in the domestic apartments. Directly he returned with the key to the theatre, which he unlocked himself. "There," said he, "go ahead, it is all right now." He then went back to his office, followed by myself, and resumed his seat. "Tad," said he, half apologetically, "is a peculiar child." He was violently excited when I went to him. I said, 'Tad, do you know you are making your father a great deal of trouble?' He burst into tears, instantly giving me up the key."

-- Six Months at the White House at pages 91-92.

To be clear, Tad did not cry because he had to give up the key. He cried because in defending his rights, he had unknowingly caused his "father a great deal of trouble."

[AussieMick]

could be that Tad was annoyed and disappointed that his father wasnt defending his (Tad's) "rights" ?

[David Lockmiller]

(02-24-2019 08:56 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  could be that Tad was annoyed and disappointed that his father wasnt defending his (Tad's) "rights" ?

No.

When Tad, who lived only a few years more, stood beside his father's coffin in the White House, he asked: "Is father in heaven now? Yes? Then I am glad, for he was not really happy here."

Lincoln, by Emil Ludwig, page 489.