Related video on derringers

[Laurie Verge]

Bob Cook alerted me to this History Detectives program that just aired on Public Television's WETA in the DC area:

PBS: History Detectives 19-minute episode (broadcast 24 July 2012) re Civil War derringers; contains an interesting firing sequence.



See: http://watch.weta.org/video/2256476136

[Craig Hipkins]

Laurie,

Interesting! I have always been interested in the weapons of that period. It was said a good Civil War rifleman could fire 3 shots in one minute.

Craig

[L Verge]

Craig,

We have had a good number of Civil War encampments at Surratt House over the years - just had the 3rd U.S. Volunteer Infantry in July. They do black powder firing demonstrations, and I have heard that three shots per minute statistic given also, and some of the re-enactors can certainly do it.

This past Saturday evening was movie night at the museum, and we showed The Red Badge of Courage with Audie Murphy. The up-close shots of him and others biting off the cartridge, loading the powder, etc. were very impressive.

I don't know if Wes Harris is a member of this forum yet, but his specialty is weapons of this era - specifically the "Tools of the Assassins," which will soon be a book. Hope he sees this and chimes in.

[BettyO]

(08-13-2012 03:16 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  Bob Cook alerted me to this History Detectives program that just aired on Public Television's WETA in the DC area:

PBS: History Detectives 19-minute episode (broadcast 24 July 2012) re Civil War derringers; contains an interesting firing sequence.



See: http://watch.weta.org/video/2256476136

Very cool, Laurie! I must have missed this one -

[LincolnMan]

Thanks Laurie!

[Rsmyth]

BTW - Stephan Crane who wrote the Red Badge of Courage was living in a house in Port Jervis, NY at the time. That is just across the river from where I live. There is a park in the center of town with a Civil War monument and some canons. It is alleged that Crane interviewed members of the Orange Blossoms (144th N.Y. Volunteer Infantry) for the story.

[Laurie Verge]

Rich,

We have a volunteer at the museum who has a PhD in history, retired from the National Archives, and now teaches continuing education courses at our community college on History and Hollywood. We had him give a brief introduction to the movie last Saturday. I believe he did say that it was based on the 144th NY, but the unit was changed to the 304th Ohio(?) in the movie?

Interesting background on the movie and how John Huston had it planned as a long production. He got pulled off the project, and the studio heads chopped it down to one hour and ten minutes.

The movie also got me interested in Audie Murphy - what a hero!

[Craig Hipkins]

It is interesting to see the evolution of the rifle during the Civil War period. At the beginning of the war some regiments were still equipped with smoothbore flintlock muskets that were slowly being switched over to percussion rifles. By the end of the war there were gatlin guns and major improvements to breach loading rifles.

I sometimes do living history demonstrations and I can tell you all first hand that 3 shots a minute in a relaxed atmosphere is hard to manage with a muzzle loader. I can't imagine what it would be like in the heat of battle!

Craig

[L Verge]

Isn't there a story about the Spencer repeating carbine being developed early in the war, but not purchased by the Army for fear that the soldiers would waste ammunition firing the eight rounds randomly instead of directly at an enemy?

I believe the story is that, once Lincoln saw the Spencer demonstrated, he immediately ordered that it be issued to the soldiers.

[Craig Hipkins]

I believe that a lot of it had to do with the conservative military attitude of the time. All of the manuals still used strategy of Napoleon. I guess it is the age old fear of change. I had not heard about Lincoln's ordering the Spencer carbines for the troops. I would like to read more about that.

Craig

[L Verge]

I believe that Lincoln saw the rifle demonstrated at the Washington Arsenal in 1863, at least a year after it had been introduced, and was so impressed that he demanded they be distributed to his soldiers as quickly as possible.

I mentioned the showing of Red Badge of Courage, which is based around the Battle of Chancellorsville in 1862. Our movie historian said in remarks after the show that the scenes where the soldiers are digging with their bayonets in order to form trenches to hide behind were inaccurate. The armies did not develop that tactic until later in the war when they realized they had to start abandoning the old European style of facing the enemy outright - reminiscent of what Craig just mentioned.

[LincolnMan]

Laurie: "Amen" to your comment about Audie Murphy. Wonder if he had any Civil War ancestors?

[L Verge]

When you look at that baby-faced boy, who was only 18 or 19 when he went to war, it is hard to imagine that he could win 30+ medals - including the Medal of Honor and high awards from France and Britain.

---

Okay, I finished the drudgery of housework for the weekend and decided to answer my own questions about the Spencer carbine and the Army's reluctance to buy it. Spencers mean something to me because there were two of them hidden at Surratt House on March 18, 1865, by John Surratt, Herold, and Atzerodt after the failed kidnap plot. We are 99% sure that Booth had bought them earlier on the black market. One was left behind by the fugitives on the night of the assassination and caused Mrs. Surratt a lot of trouble!

I just finished doing some digging on the history of the Spencer repeating carbine. It was patented by Christopher Spencer on March 6, 1860. Spencer had developed the idea of a repeating rifle shortly after he left the employ of the Colt factory in 1854.

Through a friend, Spencer managed to demonstrate his rifle for Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles in June of 1861. It impressed the Secretary with 21 shots fired in one minute (the average was said to be 15 shots). Welles referred Spencer to Commander Dahlgren, who sent him to the Chief of Naval Ordnance Andrew Harwood, who ordered a meager 700 rifles.

The rifle was also tested at Fortress Monroe in 1861. The testing included not only its fire power, but its resistance to sand and salt water as well. The Army's Chief of Ordnance James Ripley ordered 10,000 on December 31, 1861 - still not a significant number for an army of hundreds of thousands of soldiers. They then balked at ordering more until Lincoln met with Spencer on August 8, 1863, and the President was allowed to test the rifle for himself. Lincoln hit a 6-inch wide pine board at forty yards at least six times.

The sources I found, however, do not blame the lack of enthusiasm for the rifle on the probability of the soldiers wasting ammunition. They point out that Lincoln had a hard time getting Congress to approve plans for the conduct of the war - which entailed how to pay for it. It required time for the government to realize that they had to end the old system of local banks issuing currency and move to a nationalized system in order to pay for the war.

The Union was also faced with the reluctance of many to even go to war at the very beginning. This meant that Lincoln had to resort to working with profiteers and sharks in order to support the war effort until he could get the political will behind him.

Spencer carbines cost twice what muskets did, and the ammunition costs were very high. The carbines also required larger amounts of ammo, and this meant that more horses and wagons were needed in order to transport it.

Finally, the issue of gunsmoke came into play. Battles caused heavy clouds of gunsmoke that created visibility problems. Spencers tripled the rate of fire and thus caused more gunsmoke.

When they did become standard issue, they became more for the cavalry than the infantry. Phil Sheridan made very good use of them during his run through the Shenandoah Valley.

End of lesson... And now all you military historians can tell me you already knew this. Bear with me, I'm a slow learner.

[Wesley Harris]

Lincoln saw a demonstration by the Navy and fired the Spencer rifle, the larger version of the carbine. I believe there were actually two demonstrations. The first time, two different rifles jammed. Later on, Spencer personally went to the White House to provide a second demonstration. The rifle fired flawlessly, impressing the President. There's no indication that he did much to speed up acquisition of the new technology--by that time, thousands of Spencers were already on order by the Army and the Navy. There's been some misinformation printed over the years that no Spencers were purchased until Lincoln's intervention.

On a couple of occasions, the use of Spencers by Union troops turned the tide of battle.

There was concern about soldiers shooting up too much ammunition...one of the reasons George Custer's troops in 1876 had single-shot carbines and the Indians had repeaters. Not only outnumbered but outgunned.

The pine board Lincoln shot still exists....on display at the State Military Museum in Springfield, Illinois.