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J. Beckert · 05-10-2014, 01:16 PM

Good points, Toia, but I found this proclamation by Gen. Lee to be very telling of the man's character.

"The commanding General considers that no disgrace could befall the army, and through it our whole people, than the perpetration of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenseless and the wanton destruction of private property, that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country...

It must be remembered that we make war upon only armed men, and that we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies...

While similar orders regarding conduct came from the North, they were largely winked at. One of the most vile persons involved in this looting and pillaging was Ben Butler, who increased his personal fortune by almost 2 million dollars during his occupation of New Orleans.

HerbS · 05-10-2014, 01:42 PM

What kind of "Gentleman"?

RJNorton · 05-10-2014, 01:57 PM

(05-10-2014 12:46 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: I read somewhere-was it Shelby Foote? that the Civil War was the "last war fought between gentlemen".

I believe the quote is from Winston Churchill.

LincolnToddFan · 05-10-2014, 02:06 PM

Right...thanks much Roger!

I think Churchill got it wrong, though.

L Verge · 05-10-2014, 03:08 PM

I don't believe there has ever been a gentleman's war -- even the so-called "duel" involving only two people is fought with murder in mind to settle what is very likely a meaningless disagreement to everyone except the two antagonists.

That said, I am the product of a veteran of both World War II and Korea and the friend of quite a few vets from Vietnam (my generation's war). Most of the latter vets are gentlemen, loving fathers and husbands, church-goers, etc. I have never pressed them for their war stories, but have heard quite a few. War is a "time that tries men's souls" -- to paraphrase Thomas Paine -- and I don't think any of us can sit in judgment about what others do to others in wartime. And, we all know that it will never end.

Give me the strength of the long-haired Samson, a full arsenal, and send me into the drug lords' camps south of our border -- and watch me take revenge for just the few children and friends that those scum of the earth have harmed and killed with a slow and painful death...

SSlater · 05-10-2014, 09:19 PM

Well said Laurie. The average person cannot kill another person. They have to be trained to aim and pull the trigger. Thus , you are trained to HATE. Every, man woman and child of the foe is the enemy. Some people hate more intensely than others, and they can't stop the HATE. They are the ones with problems. Google "Sullivan's March". It's a horrible story - and it was US. There is no program to "untrain" the HATE. You are merely sent home. (That's enough from me.)

LincolnToddFan · 05-10-2014, 09:20 PM

[Give me the strength of the long-haired Samson, a full arsenal, and send me into the drug lords' camps south of our border -- and watch me take revenge for just the few children and friends that those scum of the earth have harmed and killed with a slow and painful death...]

Laurie, I have friends and people that I love that have been lost to addiction. These were not dumb, low life degenerates..but funny, creative, wonderful people that made the mistake of experimenting to fit in or for whatever reason.

And they got caught in the quicksand and were never able to fight their way out of it.

I agree 100% with your attitude about the vermin who have introduced this evil into our society and our lives. I would like to personally destroy them too!

brtmchl · (This post was last modified: 05-11-2014 08:09 AM by brtmchl.)

(05-10-2014 09:19 PM)SSlater Wrote: Well said Laurie. The average person cannot kill another person. They have to be trained to aim and pull the trigger. Thus , you are trained to HATE. Every, man woman and child of the foe is the enemy. Some people hate more intensely than others, and they can't stop the HATE. They are the ones with problems. Google "Sullivan's March". It's a horrible story - and it was US. There is no program to "untrain" the HATE. You are merely sent home. (That's enough from me.)

I would disagree ( in my own opinion ) that you are not trained to hate. You are trained to be disciplined. You are trained that your love of country, and love for the men besides you will guide you as a protector through that hard moment when time has come to take a life. Hate usually comes later, when your brothers begin to fall. When civilians are used as shields and it dawns on you that not everyone plays by the same rules. Hate is can usually found in those in offices that decide to send people in harm's way.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 05-11-2014 08:40 AM by Gene C.)

Just as there were atrocities on both sides of the war, there were great examples of charity, compassion and self sacrifice on both sides.
I have been fortunate not to have had to serve during a war, and am greatfull to all who have served to uphold the values and principles for which this country was founded on.

SSlater · 05-11-2014, 10:20 PM

(05-10-2014 11:34 PM)brtmchl Wrote:
(05-10-2014 09:19 PM)SSlater Wrote: Well said Laurie. The average person cannot kill another person. They have to be trained to aim and pull the trigger. Thus , you are trained to HATE. Every, man woman and child of the foe is the enemy. Some people hate more intensely than others, and they can't stop the HATE. They are the ones with problems. Google "Sullivan's March". It's a horrible story - and it was US. There is no program to "untrain" the HATE. You are merely sent home. (That's enough from me.)

I would disagree ( in my own opinion ) that you are not trained to hate. You are trained to be disciplined. You are trained that your love of country, and love for the men besides you will guide you as a protector through that hard moment when time has come to take a life. Hate usually comes later, when your brothers begin to fall. When civilians are used as shields and it dawns on you that not everyone plays by the same rules. Hate is can usually found in those in offices that decide to send people in harm's way.

Time Changes - Tactics Change - Training Changes.
When you are compelled to watch explicit atrocity films, day after day,
then go directly to a firing range, and the targets are pop-up soldiers, in the uniform of the enemy, but not show a man inside. There would be the face of a Rat, showing in the helmet This is not teaching discipline, it's HATE. I only want to make a point, let's not dwell on this.

brtmchl · 05-12-2014, 06:56 AM

"When you are compelled to watch explicit atrocity films, day after day,
then go directly to a firing range, and the targets are pop-up soldiers, in the uniform of the enemy, but not show a man inside. There would be the face of a Rat."

I know I'm getting up there in age, but I don't recall any of these "Clockwork Orange" brainwashing training methods: nor have I ever heard of it from friends and family currently serving.... Must be an Army thing. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

brtmchl · (This post was last modified: 05-12-2014 08:16 AM by brtmchl.)

There were atrocities on both sides of the Civil War just as there are in all wars. What separates this War (at least to American's) is that we fought against each other. The War grew increasingly brutal and political. But, in 1864 the War became specifically against the civilian population of the South. It was no longer a war to preserve the Union or to put down an armed rebellion. It was a War of conquest. As loathsome as Sherman WAS and is depicted, he was under orders and following a strategy ( that he also had a hand in creating ) implemented by his commanding officers and the US Government.

HerbS · 05-12-2014, 09:16 AM

At one time,I remember hearing The South being referred to as,"Conquered Provinces".Thus,I feel that the"Conquering Hero"-Mindset-was well in place!You do not go into any "contest"to-tie or Loose!