AN INTERVIEW WITH JEFFERSON DAVIS

[JMadonna]

The Globe and Traveller (England) Friday Evening, September 2, 1864
AN INTERVIEW WITH PRESIDENT DAVIS

The following is an interview from the Jaques- Gilmore peace mission to Jefferson Davis which took place in July 1864. The narrative is from the pen of J. R. Gilmore, a companion of Colonel Jaques. The substance of the communication between the President and the two negotiators was made public at the time, but the following extract will give a better idea of the proposal discussed:-

Colonel Jaques: "Suppose the two Governments agree to something like this:- to go to the people with two propositions - say, peace, with disunion and Southern independence, as your proposition, and peace, with union, emancipation, no confiscation, and universal amnesty, as ours. Let the citizens of all the United States (as they existed before the war) vote "Yes" or "No" on these two propositions, at a special election, within 60 days. If a majority votes disunion, our Government to be bound by it, and to let you go in peace; if a majority votes union, yours to be bound by it, and to stay in peace. The two Governments can contract in this way, and the people, though unconstitutionally unable to decide on peace or war, can elect which of the two propositions shall govern their rulers. Let Lee and Grant meanwhile agree to an armistice. This would sheath the sword; and if once sheathed would never again be drawn by this generation."

President Davis: "The plan is altogether impracticable. If the South were only one state it might work; but, as it is, if one Southern state objected to the emancipation, it would nullify the whole thing, for you are aware that the people of Virginia cannot vote slavery out of South Carolina, nor the people of South Carolina vote it out of Virginia."

Colonel Jaques: "But three-fourths of the States can amend the constitution. Let it be done in that way, in any way, so that it be done by the people. I am not a statesman or a politician, and I do no know just how such a plan could be carried out; but you get the idea - that the people shall decide the question."

President Davis:"That the majority shall decide it you mean. We seceded to rid ourselves of the rule of the majority, and this would subject us to it again."

Colonel Jaques: "But the majority must rule finally, either with bullets or ballots."

President Davis:"I am not so sure of that. Neither current events nor history shows that the majority rules, or ever did rule. The contrary, I think, is true. Why, Sir, the man who should go before the Southern people with such a proposition, with any proposition which implied that the North was to have a voice in determining the domestic relations of the South, could not live here a day. He would be hanged to the first tree, without judge or jury."

Colonel Jaques: "Allow me to doubt that. I think it more likely he would be hanged if he let the Southern people know the majority couldn't rule," I replied smiling.

President Davis:"I have no fear of that," rejoined Mr. Davis, also smiling good humouredly. "I give you leave to proclaim it from every housetop in the South."

Colonel Jaques: "But, seriously, sir, you let the majority rule in a single State: why not let it rule in the whole country?"

President Davis:"Because the states are independent and sovereign. The country is not. It is only a confederation of states; or rather it was; it is now two confederations."

Colonel Jaques: "Then we are not a people - we are only a political partnership?"

President Davis:"That is all."

Judah Benjamin: "Your very name, sir, 'United States,' implies that," said Mr. Benjamin. "But tell me, are the terms you have named - emancipation, no confiscation, and universal amnesty - the terms which Mr. Lincoln authorised you to offer us?"

Colonel Jaques: "No, sir; Mr. Lincoln did not authorise me to offer you any terms. But I think both he and the Northern people, for the sake of peace, would assent to some such conditions."

President Davis:"They are very generous," replied Mr. Davis, for the first time during the interview showing some angry feeling. "But amnesty, Sir, applies to criminals. We have committed no crime. Confiscation is of no account, unless you can enforce it. And emancipation! You have already emancipated nearly two millions of our slaves, and if you will take care of them you may emancipate the rest. I had a few when the war began. I was of some use to them; they never were of any to me. Against their will you 'emancipated' them, and you may 'emancipate' every Negro in the Confederacy, but we will be free. We will govern ourselves. We will do it if we have to see every Southern plantation sacked, and every Southern city in flames."

Colonel Jaques: "I see, Mr. Davis, it is useless to continue this conversation," I replied, "and you will pardon us, if we have seemed to press our views with too much pertinacity. We love the old flag, and that must be our apology for intruding upon you at all."

Colonel Jaques: As we were leaving the room Mr. Davis said,
President Davis:"Say to Mr. Lincoln from me that I [shall be] at any time he pleased to receive proposals for peace on the basis of our independence. It will be useless to approach me with any other."

Colonel Jaques: When we went out Mr. Benjamin called Judge Ould, who had been waiting during the whole interview - two hours - at the other end of the hall, and we passed down the stairway together. As I put my arm within that of the judge, he said to me- "Well, what is the result?" "Nothing but war - war to the knife." "He is joined to his idols - let him alone," added the Colonel solemnly.

[L Verge]

I had never seen mention of this. Thanks, Jerry, for sharing. If that doesn't lay out the Southern hierarchy's position, even near the end of the war, nothing does...

[HerbS]

Jerry,I always heard that J.Davis was a "Hard Head",but you have proved how"staunch"he really was! Great Job!

[JMadonna]

I'd like to note that eighty years after the fact, Adolph Hitler's conduct in a similar situation would give rise to the expression "bunker mentality". This term is used to describe the thought process of a person who refuses to acknowledge reality, while going into "survival mode" to hang to a position of authority until the last possible moment. These thoughts are often accompanied by fantastic dreams of mounting a triumphant comeback.

It seems Davis had the same mentality towards the end.

[wsanto]

(08-26-2013 02:35 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  I'd like to note that eighty years after the fact, Adolph Hitler's conduct in a similar situation would give rise to the expression "bunker mentality". This term is used to describe the thought process of a person who refuses to acknowledge reality, while going into "survival mode" to hang to a position of authority until the last possible moment. These thoughts are often accompanied by fantastic dreams of mounting a triumphant comeback.

It seems Davis had the same mentality towards the end.

Don't you feel that In July 1864 Davis still had hope of victory? Of course, in the next few months it would all unravel with Sherman marching toward Atlanta, Grant starting his seige of Petersburg and Lincoln winning re-election.

[JMadonna]

(08-26-2013 03:14 PM)wsanto Wrote:  Don't you feel that In July 1864 Davis still had hope of victory? Of course, in the next few months it would all unravel with Sherman marching toward Atlanta, Grant starting his seige of Petersburg and Lincoln winning re-election.

The only hope of victory that Davis had in the summer of 64 was a political one in hoping Lincoln lost the election. The Confederates were militarily outnumbered 2-1 from the beginning of the year and getting weaker. They were just hoping not to lose militarily before November.

I think the reason he granted the interview was to paint Lincoln as the one interested in continuing the war and only for emancipation. Give Davis independence and he would be satisfied.

[L Verge]

I think we have to give consideration to the fact that Davis specifically was clinging to his moral principles of upholding the values of the Confederacy to the end. Booth had written, "Right or wrong, God judge me." However, I think that many in the "Lost Cause" would have accepted that as their motto too.

As usual, our tendency is to judge them by what we now know (and our prejudices) - not by the principles that they had grown up with and put on the line. Whether some of us want to accept it or not, many in the Confederacy had strong backgrounds in government, military, and religion. How many of us today look at George Washington and his troops at Valley Forge and think, "They were worn out and had nothing left to gain. They should have just hung it up at that point." It's human nature to hope for a turn of events or a miracle.

P.S. I also heartily agree with Jerry's closing sentence above about Davis hoping to turn opinion against Lincoln at election time. A politician and a military man hoping that all things are possible.

[JMadonna]

(08-26-2013 05:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I think we have to give consideration to the fact that Davis specifically was clinging to his moral principles of upholding the values of the Confederacy to the end. Booth had written, "Right or wrong, God judge me." However, I think that many in the "Lost Cause" would have accepted that as their motto too.

IMO Davis was demented at the end of the war. With Lincoln re-elected he had no hope. In February of 1865 Lincoln had been ready to offer the southern states not only universal amnesty but four hundred million dollars in cash in return for their laying down their arms and ratifying the Thirteenth Amendment.

Davis was willing to put slaves into the fight at that point even though the Congress was not. Put simply then, Jefferson Davis’s primary objective at the conference was to secure the survival of the Confederacy as an independent nation.

His address at the African Church contained an unusually candid statement that assured his weary countrymen of his desire for peace and imparted to them how modest his demands at the conference had been. “Anything honorable, and recognizing our independence as a basis,” he told the crowd, “would have been gladly accepted.”

But if Confederate independence was his only demand, what did an “independent Confederacy” mean to Davis in February 1865?

In his interview with Blair, Davis acknowledged that a return of all Confederate territory lost during the war was out of the question - All that was left of the Confederacy was the territory Lee's army was starving on.

He was so committed to an abstract principle that he didn't realize it was already lost.

There is a consensus among historians that no one could have kept the Confederacy going as long as Jeff Davis. That may be true but a lot more people would have been alive at the end.

[Thomas Thorne]

Excellent Article Jerry!!

The interview was obviously conducted before the fall of Atlanta which occurred on the same day the article was published. I have never been a Jefferson Davis fan but comparisons to Hitler's psychological state seem extreme. Lincoln was certainly feeling very pessimistic about his reelection chances at the time and he famously if privately predicted his defeat would doom the Union.

The most startling revelation to me about the interview was Davis' statement "I was of some use to[my slaves.] They never were any use to me.''

Such self deception plays a very large part in our affairs and only a very small part of it can be attributed to mental illness.
Tom

[My Name Is Kate]

That statement caught my attention too. So why then did he keep them?

I wonder if Davis' viewpoint was shared by the majority of Southerners in the summer of 1864, or if they were mostly war-weary and may have settled for some sort of compromise.

[LincolnMan]

Very interesting read. Obviously, there was not going to be any movement in their views between the two- Lincoln and Davis. Both men were brilliant and dedicated to their beliefs and principles.

[HerbS]

Jerry,I think you are correct in comparing Davis to Hitler.They both used young boys and old men to fight to the bitter end.Even in the book"Custer and Crazy Horse" the author showed thier "Ego-Maniac"similarities.

[L Verge]

The young boys and old men who remained with Davis could have easily slipped away into the night - as so many had done - instead of fighting to the bitter end. Could they have possibly stayed on because they were fighting for their principles also?

As for why Davis and the majority of Southerners who had qualms about owning slaves did not release them requires too long a lesson on the economic and societal issues that had to be dealt with.

[JMadonna]

Herb,
I wasn't comparing Davis to Hitler career-wise, I just noted that towards the end, the myopic isolation in which both intellects worked seemed to be similar.

As for Davis comment about his slaves, even though he was a plantation owner his plantation was a gift from his brother. Jeff Davis himself was more or less an absentee owner pursuing his political career. His brother ran the farm.

[JMadonna]

Found a little more on the mission. It looks by this time the Confederates weren't fighting for principles.

According to Gilmore, on their way to Richmond they were escorted to the quarters of General James Longstreet who received them cordially. There they met many of the Confederate leaders, with all of whom they discussed the situation frankly and freely. To all of them Gilmore said, 'Lay down your arms, go back to your allegiance, and the country will deal kindly and generously by you.' He could not say more, for he was restricted from going into details. From all he had, in effect the same answer: 'We are tired of the war. We are willing to give up slavery. We know it is gone; but so long as our Government holds out, we must stand by it. We cannot betray it and each other.'