Lincoln and Ann Rutledge

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-30-2014 05:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 02:44 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  and also because Mary (some scholars think) had sustained injuries giving birth to Tad and had therefore given up conjugal relations.

Jean Baker is among those who disagree. Her reasoning is on p. 228 of her Mary bio.

Jean Baker doesn't discuss the question of separate bedrooms, however. But let's assume with Baker that the Lincolns' "physical intimacy" continued at the White House, and for the sake of argument further assume that they did in fact share the same White House bedroom. Would that much change the issues raised by Lincoln & Derickson sleeping together when Mary was out of town?

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(06-29-2014 08:08 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 06:07 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  I must back up a bit in my reply to David Lockmiller, who wrote:

Yet, Professor David Herbert Donald states in his Pulitzer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57: "[Lincoln] told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave.'"

As David says, it is indeed true that Donald, in Lincoln, endorsed the academic revival of the Ann Rutledge story. Absolutely true, and I apologize for casting doubt on David's observation. But there's a major twist here: Donald had changed his mind, and then changed it again. In his very first book, Lincoln's Herndon, his justly celebrated bio of Herndon, he ridiculed the Rutledge story, in Lincoln he reversed himself and accepted the story, and in "We Are Lincoln Men" he once again rejected it. (Incidentally: he gave Tripp partial credit for the final rejection.) Why did Donald go back and forth? That's way too complicated to get into here. The main point is that, after much thinking, David Donald concluded that the Rutledge story didn't happen, and based that conclusion to a large degree on Elizabeth Abell's statement that she knew nothing about a Lincoln/Rutledge love affair.

Then, if there was not a strong love relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, what possible explanation would Lincoln have made to Elizabeth Abell as to why "her (Ann's) death was a great shock to him." Elizabeth Arbell made this observation which continues as follows: "I never seen a man mourn for a companion more than he did for her[;] he made a remark one day when it was raining that he could not bare the idea of its raining on her Grave." Herndon's Informants at page 557.

You say that both you and "Flip-Flop" David Donald have "concluded that the Rutledge story didn't happen, and base[] that conclusion to a large degree on Elizabeth Abell's statement that she knew nothing about a Lincoln/Rutledge love affair." The exact words used by Elizabeth Abell in answer to Herndon's third question are these: "[T]he Courtship between him and Miss Rutledge I can say but little." Herndon's Informants at page 556. At least Elizabeth Abell knew that there was a "Courtship between [Mr. Abraham Lincoln] and Miss Rutledge." You and "Flip-Flop" Donald, in the end, will not even admit that.

There's an old saying that I believe is applicable here: "There are none so blind as those that will not see."

Abell's phrasing doesn't by a long shot mean that "she knew" that there was a courtship. One of the striking things about the testimony is that nobody, not even anyone in the Rutledge family, related an eyewitness memory of Lincoln courting Rutledge. Technically there was one exception, Lizzie Herndon Bell (a cousin of William Herndon's). Lizzie was two or three when Ann died, and quite a fanciful character to boot. The question of what people actually "knew" about Lincoln's relationship with Ann gets more & more tenuous the closer one examines it. Consider the case of James "Uncle Jimmy" Short, who lived within walking distance of the Rutledges at Sandridge, an area a few miles north of the New Salem. Lincoln came by to see him and the Rutledges every few days, according to Short. He never got an inkling that Lincoln was courting Ann. After Ann died in August, the Rutledges continued to live in the Sandridge house until the following spring. During that time Short continued to be their neighbor. He didn't recall any discussions with the family about Lincoln's relationship with the deceased.