The Jefferson Lemen Compact - Was it True

[Anita]

(01-25-2016 11:42 AM)maharba Wrote:  Thanks Rob for detailed analysis on this subject. And as you say, it wasn't necessary and did not enhance the Lemens 'cred' as anti-slavery advocates to produce cooked-up documents. As I look in history at all the machinations of Thomas Jefferson, it interests me more (than the Lincoln connection) to factor the Jefferson-Lemen Compact. Jefferson may have only coyly led Rev James Lemen on to believe there was an actual Compact, but really only hoped he could get Lemen and others to go out to Indiana Territory/Illinois and work against slavery. Or, it may be that latter-day 'experts' do not want it confirmed and understood that the same
Jefferson they use to create a 'separation of church and state', this same Jefferson observed NO such separation, and may have recruited and exploited Christian pastors to go out and meddle into Territory/State politics from a religious framework. If that really is the case. And would Lincoln, if he did learn of the supposed Compact, would he realize the fuller implications?

There is no doubt imo that Lincoln did travel as a lawyer with one or several Lemens, lodged with them in his travels, and at their house apparently several times in Salem ILL, and having very long late night conversations which must have been wide ranging. I almost agree, though surely I am no handwriting or Lincoln writing expert, I almost agree that the Lemens or someone they knew...recooked and rewrote up the Lincoln letter of March 2 1857. I believe, at this point, that the 1850 Lincoln knew all the particulars of SUCH a letter (except perhaps the Jefferson-Lemen Compact in its explicit terms), and that Lincoln could have written such a letter and acquiescing to all the themes and particulars in it. I say Lincoln 'could have' written such a letter, but I tend to doubt that Lincoln DID write that letter. My opinion may change, as I find more information.

I see Ida Tarbell quoted online...and quoting the Rev Lemen

“my travels as a gospel minister.. the first time I met (Lincoln) in Vandalia, in 1837, when he was a member of the Legislature...and both boarding at the same place, Mr. Lincoln and I were thrown together a great deal. Generally, for three nights every week, he was at my rooms until midnight.. I was frequently at Springfield on business or duty, and there Lincoln spent three or four evenings, generally at my rooms, every week"

Also the reminesces of Benjamin F. Lemen of Abraham Lincoln visiting several times at his family's house in Salem ILL. The sofa Lincoln slept on, donated to the Governor's Mansion, etc.

I believe these meetings between Lemen's and Lincoln certainly took place, the Lemen's may have exaggerated how good friends they all were. But, little doubt to me that they were all 'talkers' and exchanged many thoughts, histories, and various ideas. As you point out, Roger, it's significant they weren't at Lincoln's funeral, were not interviewed by
Herndon. And as you mention, Roger, no letters Lincoln TO Lemen, or in Day by Day. Since B.F.Lemen was appointed Indian agent, how would that work. One of his secretaries maybe sent Lemen a telegram or letter appointing him, I guess.

maharba,

The questions you asked (although I don't see a question mark) "The Jefferson Lemen Compact - Was it True", have been answered by both Roger and Rob. Any letters or other family papers showing a link to Lincoln were forgeries.

Other than Lemen's own statements and your belief that they may have crossed paths somewhere, there is no documented proof that Lincoln ever knew Rev. James Lemen Senior much less that they were good friends.

maharba, in your post #16 above, you state " And as you mention, Roger, no letters Lincoln TO Lemen, or in Day by Day. Since B.F.Lemen was appointed Indian agent, how would that work. One of his secretaries maybe sent Lemen a telegram or letter appointing him, I guess."

I would love for you to find a letter, telegram or email from Ĺincoln appointing B.F. Lemen Indian agent.

Lincoln appointed seven Indian Agents during his administration. Two were from Illinois. "Lincoln Looks West: From the Mississippi to the Pacific" by Richard W Etulain, pg 164
http://tinyurl.com/j4vc9nj

The two from Illinois were :

William P. Dole, from Paris, Illinois and Indiana. Appointed Commissioner of Indian Affairs.

James Short, friend from New Salem. Appointed Indian agent at Round Valley Indian Reservation in California.

In fact if you go here you will find the above names included in a long with "....list of close Illinois (or near-Illinois) friends and colleagues who were rewarded by President Lincoln for past loyalty is a surprisingly long one" Go here to see list. http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/insid...pageID=30& There isn't a Lemen on it.

Then you move on in post 17 trying to find a link between Lincoln and Joseph Lemen using letter written by John Nicolay to Joseph Lemen. Please see Roger's post #18.

So far that leaves us with no credible documentation that Lincoln was a friend of Lemen family members.