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antiquefinder · (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 08:59 PM by antiquefinder.)

(11-21-2012 06:57 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: I've always gone against the grain where Herndon is concerned. Without Herndon, much of what we know about Lincoln's early life would have been lost. While one certainly has to use his interviews with caution, I've never accepted that distance from events automatically makes remembrance suspect. In sharp detail, maybe, but it doesn't mean the broad outlines are incorrect.

I think much of what he said about Lincoln was either true or something that Lincoln told him. Whether Lincoln told him in confidence, for example, that he thought his mother was illegitimate I've always wondered why would Herndon make up something that specific? Of all the things a person could make up about Lincoln, why focus on his mother, especially something that volatile? I also believe Herndon where Ann Rutledge in concerned. I think it's quite possible that she could have been his one true love, although that doesn't discount my view that he did love Mary as well. Speaking from experience, it's quite possible to be in love with someone but not as deeply as one might have been with someone else. When he gave the Rutledge lecture, Herndon obviously was trying to goad Mary, but what would be more effective than something she knew, or may have believed, to be the truth?

Herndon had his own demons, most notably alcohol. Also, being attacked vociferously by people who, let's face it, were mere hagiographers, and who gave the people the Lincoln they wanted, would be enough to make anyone bitter.

Bill asks what positive qualities attracted Herndon to Lincoln. I think Lincoln saw a kindred spirit in Herndon. Both were intellectual. Both had their problems with organized religion. Both were attracted to the law and both had strong reasoning skills and logical ability. Lincoln saw past the flaws, which, let's face it, are present in everyone.

Best
Rob

Rob-
I have just run across this thread and I read it twice. The way that you worded the explanation of Herndon was right on the money. I totally agree with you and what Mike B. said. Rob- the way you worded how Lincoln felt about Ann Rutledge really struck a chord. I personally think Mary Todd was not the right wife for Lincoln, but was probably the right person to get him to become president at the time. I believe Lincoln loved Mary but maybe if they didn't have kids together, Lincoln might have had enough. Just a thought. IMO Ann Rutledge was his match. They both came from the same way of living and a simple life where Mary Todd came from wealth and a privileged life. Mary didn't know what it meant to struggle. Great post Rob!

(11-21-2012 07:10 PM)Mike B. Wrote: I have a lot of thoughts on Herndon, but I will try to be as brief as a windbag like myself can be.

To repsond to some points rasied so far:

1. There is not a shred of evidence that Herndon ever lied on a story of which he was a witness to. People have taken issue with theories he came up with such as Thomas Lincoln may not have been the real father of Lincoln based on what others said to him. So the idea that Herndon didn't let facts get in the way of a good story I don't think is fair. Herndon always said he "took truth as my guide." I don't think it is correct than to question his credibility without evidence that he was clearly lying. He may have been wrong about things like the "fatal first of January." However, he never claimed to be a witness to this. It was also a reasonable interpretation given what was told him by the Edwardes and his reading of the Speed/Lincoln letter about the "fatal first." That he was wrong we know now does not mean he was a liar.

2. Herndon was an alcholic. In fact, Lincoln was forced to bail him out of jail one morning when Herndon and his friends got drunk and broke windows in Springfield. Herndon late in life did kick the habbit though. I would offer this thought though. IMHO, if alcholism is a disease as doctors say, than certainly if we are collectively going to give sympathy to Mary's health problems we should at least offer some sympathy with someone who struggled and utlimately overcame substance abuse.

3. I am baffled why anyone would call themselves a "Herndon hater." That seems rather over the top language that is not helpful.
We would know VERY LITTLE about Lincoln's life in Indiana for example if not for Herndon's interviews with the informants there or New Salem without his interviews with those people. All biographers use this material, so it is pretty hard to get away from Herndon. So all of us Lincoln buffs owe a debt of gratitude to him.

4. Herndon did have many positive qualities that went along with the bad. He was very well read and intelligent. Read his other lectures on Lincoln he gave and you see a man who was a pretty serious thinker. Just like one can see from Mary's writings that she was an intelligent and educated person.

Of course, this led to problems, Herndon's grave right next to Lincoln's in Springfield has a quote on it that he wrote in a young lady's book. He was flowery in his prose, and Lincoln told him once when talking to juries, "Aim lower Billy, you hit more people."

He was also very loyal to Lincoln. After Lincoln lost the Senate race in 1858, he said to an associate, "I expect everyone to desert me except Billy." I am sure Lincoln appreciated that loyalty.

Herndon could let his temper get away from him at times. When the Irish immigrants to Illinois were voting heavily for the Democrats rather than Lincoln. Herdon at a public meeting got up and yelled, "G-d d-mn the Irish!!! I want it plainly understood that we mean to have war with them!"

Compare that to Lincoln. They had their differences. Lincoln spoiled his children. Herdon used a razor strap on his own. Lincoln's marriage, at the very least, had rough patches. Herndon was married twice happily and claimed late in life that he was blessed with two women that he never had an unhappy day with. (an exageration no doubt, but telling.) So in a lot of ways Herndon's and Lincoln's qualities complimented each other and led to a successful political and legal partnership.

A couple other points...

1. Herndon became the "boogie man" for Mary's most ardent and least nuanced defenders. I think the feeling started with Ruth Painter Randall that the best way to defend Mary was to go after Herndon. To coin a phrase, this began the "war against Billy Herndon."

She accussed him of hating Mary so much that he fed people information in his interviews and prompted them to give negative information about her. Doug Wilson and Rodney Davis have went over the original Herndon/Weik material extensively and have found no evidence that Herndon did this.

(In a remarkable act of hypocrisy Ruth Painter Randall uses Herndon material when it is very sympathetic to Mary in her book after accusing him of producing worthless and biased information.)

2. Herdon did himself no favors with his Ann Rutledge lecture (though if you read the original 1866 one it is not as bad as one might think and is mostly about the poem 'Mortality' and the flora and fauna of New Salem.) I believe he was right about the relationship though.

Neither he or Mary were ever quick to forgive. When she went after him for the lecture, he fought back. When he gave a lecture that quoted an interview he had with Mary about Lincoln's religion, she denied she ever had the interview with him. She at this point was clearly having problems. But with almost prosecutorial glee he publicly showed proof she did have the interview with him and said what he quoted. At that point it probably would have been best to let it go.

Mike B.- Awesome and well thought out post! I agree with your post. Without Herndon, we all wouldn't know what we know about Lincoln. I believe the story about Lincoln and Ann Rutledge. I think that was Lincoln's true love. Besides, what would Herndon gain from telling this story? He certainly wasn't getting paid for it. I also agree what Rob said about how Herndon told the story of Lincoln's mother Nancy being illegitimate. Why would he pick Nancy Lincoln to lie about? What would he gain by making these stories up? I have read a number of times that Herndon said Lincoln had syphillis when he was younger and was treated with mercury. Lincoln told Herndon that he visited a prostitute. I don't remember if Herndon stated that this was before or after Lincoln was married to Mary Todd? Do we know for a fact that Lincoln did have syphillis? Everything you said Mike B. was well put. Bravo!