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STS Lincolnite · 03-06-2025, 04:08 PM

(03-06-2025 01:04 PM)wpbinzel Wrote:
(03-06-2025 06:40 AM)Steve Wrote:
(04-19-2021 05:21 AM)RJNorton Wrote: I apologize to Scott if he clearly answered this question in his excellent talk. What surprises me is that there is even a debate on this. All 3 primary sources (John Hay, Dr. Charles Sabin Taft, and James Tanner who were present at the death scene) agree on Stanton saying "ages." No one who was present when Lincoln died claimed Stanton said "angels." So why is there a debate? In many instances what we know of the details of the Lincoln assassination saga is due to only one primary source, but in this case we actually have 3. So can someone clearly enunciate why the 3 primary sources are questioned?

Scott mentioned the names of many authors who use "ages" and many of whom use "angels." But somehow I missed the root cause of the debate.

Sorry about using a thread from 4 years ago out of the blue, especially about the 2021 Surratt Conference. But a thought about the whole "Ages" quote by Stanton came to me. It first appeared quoted by Hay in 1890, followed by Dr. Taft in this 1893 article in Century magazine, right?:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The...frontcover

Taft said he composed the article using notes he made the day after Lincoln's death. Has anybody examined Taft's original notes to see if they include the quote? I know it's a small detail that could've just been added to article based on memory (or what Taft thinks is a memory of his). But we won't know for sure until someone looks (if the original notes survive).

Steve - Great question, which I have researched and written an article that is far too long to post here (but I would be happy to send it to you privately). You are correct. The source of "Ages" is Nicolay and Hay in 1890; and Dr. Taft concurred in 1893. Of those present in 1865 at Lincoln's death, and who were still alive 25 years later, I have not found an original source that refutes Nicolay and Hay. In 1965, the Kunhardts published Twenty Days with "Angels." Unfortunately, they did not cite their source. If Dr. Taft's original notes from April 15, 1865 still exist, I have not seen them or even know where they might be. It may be a case of where "If the legend becomes fact, print the legend." Bill

I am still working on my article (mentioned earlier in this thread) on this topic. Part of the problem has been that as I continue to chip away at some research threads, I am actually finding some new things - so I am hesitant about finishing up the article in fear I might find something critical after I have submitted for publication. I would say my final conclusion remains the same but one of the things I have found since my talk is quite important and I think strengthens my conclusion. That said, I have couple more threads to pull on and who knows what I will find. But I hope to have my final draft ready for publication by the end of 2025.

Anyway, I thought I would chip in here too. In doing so, I will reiterate/agree with a lot of what Bill said.

As far as I have found, "ages" first appearance is indeed the Nicolay and Hay biography of Lincoln from 1890. Though Twenty Days (1965) was the work that gained the most traction with respect to the use of "angels," Dorothy Kundardt wrote an earlier article that espoused the same idea that it was "angels" not ages. And I found while doing research that "angels" actually shows up as early as 1899 in a newspaper article and several other places in the early 20th century. But, as Bill said above, there are no accounts from people actually (or at least purported to be) at Lincoln's deathbed that use "angels." Or at east none that I have yet found. Twenty Days uses James Tanner as it's source (though the written account they re-produce is not actually cited, so we can't verify it or its origin). However, in my research, I have found at least 3 accounts by Tanner, all signed in ink by him, and in all of them he uses "ages."

As far as Taft goes, he went from publishing an early account where he did not make any mention of Stanton having said anything to then much, much later giving his version of the "ages" line in 1893. Like Bill, I have never come across any original notes from Taft. If they do exist, I would speculate they are in a private collection somewhere.

Lastly I feel like I should mention that my original talk was about "ages" vs "angels" because they are the most commonly cited as being part of what Stanton said. BUT there are other words that have been attributed to Stanton at Lincoln's deathbed (not having ages or angels in their construction) in other published accounts. And one such account was from someone who was purportedly in the room. So that does contradict (though not enough to refute) Nicolay and Hay.