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kerry · 12-17-2017, 03:16 PM

(12-17-2017 05:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Good post, Kerry. I lack the time for thorough comments that include references right now, so just my opinion from "reading memories":
"I think he really could not handle taking on broader concerns because he was emotionally overwhelmed by his own family issues."
All his remaining lifetime? He piled wealth from others' labor and abuse and could play lots of golf the Pullman workers probably couldn't afford. I really despise this. In each religion there's the obligation to share a part/percentage of what you earn. It's a kind of human/social obligation IMO to care for and about those in need especially when you posses overly. (Even many animals care.) Since he didn't seem religious I doubt he did in any way. He deserved what his offspring did to Hildene, what a pity he didn't live to see. Especially all the animal residents...I think he didn't like animals, tells a lot about a person.
And I doubt he had made it that far without his parents (also his mother).

Thanks - I think in his case, it became internalized for life. He needed to shut down to get through law school/get his career going. Taking care of the legacy meant constant reminders, and the issues with Tad and Mary happened, and then his own son. It was a very drawn out traumatic period, with Lincoln being talked about everywhere all the time. It was hard to get away from it. He was not comfortable with more 'average' people and had a paternalistic mindset typical of wealthy white men in the 'company town' era. I just feel like he knew better, and that's why it's easier for me to see his issues with getting involved as more of a phobia than a lack of caring. I tend to agree about the not liking animals thing not boding well in general, but Mary doesn't seem to have liked animals either. I think this also comes down to a worldview thing: I agree that people with that much wealth have social obligations and that there is such a thing as too much wealth, but a vocal portion of society disagrees with me on that, and would see Robert's wealth as very admirable. I will always wonder what Mary would have done had she ended up with more money in 1865. She may have continued to panic about it and hoard it, but I think at a certain point, especially if Lincoln had lived, she would have been active in charitable endeavors. If Robert had had more of an inheritance, she might have showered gifts elsewhere.

Quote:
From the outset he didn't look into "what is the best to help mother" but into "what is the best for her that solves my problem in an unobjectable manner".

I agree with this. Except in his letter to Sally Orne, he never actually says he's doing it for her happiness. I get that the way of looking at treatment was different because there wasn't a whole lot of actual help available; just restraint. Swett and Davis' letters focus solely on financial and reputation aspects. It was a fairly impossible situation, and we still don't know how dangerous Mary was to herself because we got incomplete information. The trial focused on financial things, which made it more suspicious. But the question really was not "was she arguably fit for commitment," to which I would say arguably, yes, and arguably, no, but what would commitment accomplish? Was it going to help anyone, especially her? Anyone who knew her suspected she wouldn't accept it. For some people, it may have been the right decision, but for her, it seemed to be guaranteed disaster. There was a fantasy that there was an "unobjectionable" solution, but it was clear there would be an objection. They didn't seem to take Mary seriously or recognize her drive and intelligence. If she truly needed commitment, they should have gone with the full evidence, even if it was embarrassing, and dealt with the media war that ensued. That would be the right thing to do.

Quote:His father had much more to endure - family tragedies from early childhood on, poverty, war conduct (again, Robert just joined this for reputation, and I doubt he would have had the stamina for real battle.) Mary was on the edge in the White House years, too - including spiritualism, yet I doubt her husband would ever had treated her that way, and not behind her back.
And on the account of heart, warmth and humanity, Mary had (I think) much more to go for than Robert, as had his brothers.
And I bet deep down in his "heart", before presidential limelight set in, Robert had sometimes felt ashamed for his father's "inappropriate appearance" and "behavior" as not in line with Robert's aspired "class and standing" .
And yes, he was certainly overly sensitive - to all that concerned/interfered with his needs.

Lincoln was unstable at times, and he was also an extraordinary person. He is the perfect example of becoming more empathetic and open with experience and through suffering. But his example is anomalous. It's not really a matter of what happens to you, but how you are equipped to deal with it. People have had worse lives than Robert's, for sure, but I think he inherited mental instability and a reserved personality and I think fame is a major aggravating factor. Mary was clearly hit harder by things than most people because of her personality and mental health. I think the whole family was very sensitive, and I don't mean that as an inherently negative thing at all. But they were vulnerable and had different reactions. Clearly Mary wanted to express her feelings and Robert did not. I would agree Robert was probably embarrassed by his parents growing up - they stood out. It's a shame, but it happens. I agree that Mary was already pretty unstable in the White House and that Lincoln made a clear decision not to have her locked away but in fact encouraged her participation, and that is a major difference in outlook that has to be part of the debate. Robert wasn't as amazingly skilled with dealing with people as Lincoln was. He couldn't handle it the same way. But it's still notable that Lincoln handled it. Swett and Davis never say they think Lincoln would have approved, and even wonder what he would have thought. But his everyday presence would have made her a lot safer during her episodes of confusion. That was one thing that was hard to replace, unless Robert was going to abandon his family and job and follow her around.

(12-17-2017 11:02 AM)RJNorton Wrote: I do not think this letter has ever been posted on the forum. It was written in extreme anger as Mary was obviously furious at Robert for being surprised in her hotel room and taken against her will, the trial, the verdict, and her stay at Bellevue. The anger boiled for an entire year, and a few days after a second court restored her rights, she wrote her son:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks for posting this. Its presence in the letter about the gifts makes the connection reasonable, but to me it seems like she was talking about the bonds that she had just gotten back with the robbery comment, and this taking back gifts was just punishment.