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Lincoln and Ann Rutledge
06-27-2014, 11:21 AM
Post: #267
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge
(06-24-2014 04:33 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  The idea that AL & AR had a doomed romance unbeknownst to Herndon until after AL's death is completely implausible. Herndon had long been obsessed with L. He'd long known all the self-professed witnesses. Why did he frame the romance as a major new discovery?

When did Herndon first see Lincoln? When did Herndon first become acquainted with Lincoln? And, most importantly, when did Herndon become "warmly attached" to Lincoln?

On these first two questions, Herndon is quoted in the book Herndon's Life of Lincoln, Da Capo ed., pp. 72-73: "The early spring of 1832 brought to Springfield and New Salem a most joyful announcement. It was the news of the coming of a steamboat down the Sangamon River . . . I remember the occasion well, for two reasons. It was my first sight of a steamboat, also the first time I ever saw Mr. Lincoln--although I never became acquainted with him till his second race for the Legislature in 1834."

Professor David Herbert Donald wrote in his book Lincoln, at page 66, of Lincoln's move to Springfield:

On April 15, 1837, Lincoln rode into Springfield on a borrowed horse, with all his wordly possessions crammed into the two saddlebags. Speed was the proprietor of a store at which Lincoln intended to purchase a mattress and bedding. The quoted cost was $17, which Lincoln did not have. Telling Speed that he had come to Springfield to try an "experiment as a lawyer," he asked for credit until Christmas, adding in a sad voice: "If I fail in this, I do not know that I can ever pay you." Speed, who knew this young man by reputation and had heard him make a political speech, suggested a way he could avoid incurring a debt that clearly troubled him. "I have a large room with a double bed up-stairs, which you are welcome to share with me," he offered. Lincoln picked up his saddlebags and went up stairs to check out the situation. Shortly afterward, he returned beaming with pleasure and announced, "Well, Speed, I am moved."

The point of presenting this statement is that Joshua Speed, who was to become Lincoln's closest and long-lasting friend, apparently was never made aware by Lincoln of the deep trauma inflicted upon him by the death of Ann Rutledge on August 25, 1835. According to a previous posting made on this thread, the details of Lincoln's love for Ann Rutledge were not made known to Speed until Herndon sent him a copy of his "Ann Rutledge" lecture in 1866. A portion of Speed's response, quoted in that previous posting that someone else made, was that "it was news to me." (Or, words to that effect.)

Professor Donald also noted that at the time of Lincoln's move to Springfield that "it was now a thriving community of 1,500 residents." Ibid. p. 67. "The courthouse--soon to be replaced by the new state capitol--was surrounded by nineteen dry goods stores, seven groceries, four drugstores, two clothing stores, and a bookstore. Four hotels cared for transients. In addition to schools and an 'academy,' the town boasted six churches. The professions were represented by eighteen doctors and eleven lawyers. There was a Whig newspaper, the Sangamo Journal, edited by Simeon Francis, to whom Lincoln during the previous sessions of the legislature had frequently sent news from Vandalia."

I now return to Herndon's statements of his own history with Lincoln and again quote from Herndon's Life of Lincoln, Da Capo ed., pp.145-46:

"After his return from the Legislature, Lincoln determined to remove to Springfield, the county seat, and begin the practice of the law. . . . I had up to this time frequently seen Mr. Lincoln--had often, while visiting my cousins, James and Rowan Herndon, at New Salem, met him at their house--but became warmly attached to him soon afte his removal to Springfield. There was something in his tall and angular frame, his ill-fitting garments, honest face, and lively humor that imprinted his individuality on my affection and regard. What impression I made on him I had no means of knowing till many years afterwards (emphasis added). He was my senior by nine years, and I looked up to him, naturally enough, as my superior in everything--a thing I continued to do until the end of his days."

In conclusion, if Speed was unaware of the "Ann Rutledge" story until 1866, is it implausible (nay, even highly probable)that Herndon was also unaware of this episode in Lincoln's life until he conducted interviews with long-time residents of New Salem following Lincoln's death?

"So very difficult a matter is it to trace and find out the truth of anything by history." -- Plutarch
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Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-18-2012, 04:38 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rogerm - 07-18-2012, 05:24 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 07-18-2012, 05:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 07-18-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - J. Beckert - 07-18-2012, 08:39 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 07:33 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-19-2012, 10:37 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-03-2017, 04:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-03-2017, 01:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rsmyth - 07-19-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 07-19-2012, 09:01 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-19-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 11:10 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-19-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 07-19-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 12:56 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 07:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 08-01-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 08:08 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-01-2012, 08:20 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 08:33 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-01-2012, 06:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 08:45 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-10-2012, 07:15 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-10-2012, 07:17 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-10-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-11-2012, 06:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 08-11-2012, 10:35 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-11-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-19-2012, 06:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-19-2012, 09:48 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-19-2012, 10:24 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-19-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - GARY POPOLO - 11-22-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 11-22-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 11-23-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 12-04-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-21-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-21-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-21-2013, 05:29 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Tom Emery - 07-22-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Tom Emery - 07-22-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 04-19-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-19-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rsmyth - 04-23-2014, 06:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-07-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-22-2014, 04:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-23-2014, 04:03 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-21-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-21-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 05-24-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-24-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-24-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-25-2014, 06:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-25-2014, 04:18 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-28-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-25-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-29-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-28-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-28-2014, 03:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-28-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-29-2014, 03:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-01-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-01-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-26-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-31-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-31-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - BettyO - 05-31-2014, 09:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - BettyO - 05-31-2014, 10:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-01-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-01-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 06-01-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 04:37 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-02-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-05-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-02-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-02-2014, 08:12 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-02-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 06-16-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-16-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-17-2014, 04:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-19-2014, 06:25 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-17-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 06-17-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-18-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-19-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-19-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-24-2014, 08:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 06-27-2014 11:21 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-28-2014, 09:11 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-29-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-07-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-24-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 04:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 06-25-2014, 06:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-25-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 05:01 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 09:05 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-26-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Wild Bill - 06-26-2014, 07:54 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 08:27 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-26-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-26-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-27-2014, 04:24 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-27-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-28-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-30-2014, 04:11 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-30-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-30-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-02-2014, 07:55 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 07-02-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 07-07-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-02-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Angela - 09-03-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 09-03-2014, 02:09 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-03-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Houmes - 09-03-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 09-05-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 09-06-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-05-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 09-06-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-06-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - ELCore - 04-06-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-06-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-06-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-06-2016, 11:03 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-08-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Ed Steers - 04-22-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-25-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 04-23-2016, 09:46 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - davg2000 - 04-24-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 04-24-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-26-2016, 04:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-26-2016, 06:04 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-26-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-26-2016, 02:13 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-26-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-04-2016, 10:06 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-05-2016, 04:42 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-05-2016, 06:02 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 08-22-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Ed Steers - 12-04-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-04-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 12-04-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-04-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 12-04-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Anita - 12-05-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Houmes - 12-05-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-05-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 12-05-2016, 07:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Anita - 12-07-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-07-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-11-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-11-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-12-2017, 04:10 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-11-2017, 06:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 06-13-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-13-2017, 12:15 PM

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