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"Alias Paine"
01-29-2013, 10:11 PM
Post: #106
RE: "Alias Paine"
(01-27-2013 08:48 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Not to change the subject too much, but I think Fanny Seward was probably another interesting character in the Civil War/Lincoln saga. I read somewhere, maybe it was in "Alias Paine", that when she was brought on the monitor to identify Lewis, all she said was that she couldn't be sure it was him, and she didn't want to incriminate a young man and ruin his life if there was any doubt about his guilt. That is a pretty mature and considerate thought for such a young girl to have, especially after what she had witnessed, and I bet she was very nearly sure that it was the same person, but maybe not 100% sure.

The story of Fanny being brought to the monitor to identify Powell is not in the first edition of Alias Paine. It was originally recounted by Tullio Verdi, the Seward's doctor, who accompanied Fanny to the monitor. It can be found in Google Books, The Republic, A Monthly Magazine, "The Assassination of the Sewards," Volume One, page 289.

"Conscientious, even at this trying moment, she could not identify the man; her identification, she thought, might be his death. She had only seen him by a dim light as in a frightful vision. That is all she said."
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01-29-2013, 11:56 PM
Post: #107
RE: "Alias Paine"
I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the second Tidwell book which I ordered last week from a certain Confederate safe house in Maryland.

In the case of Lewis Powell "clothes make the man" or actually unmake the man. Neither he,Booth or the conspirators were in uniform the night of Apr 14.

Placing myself in Jefferson Davis' shoes and conceding for the sake of argument that he would seek retribution for the Dahlgren raid-it is interesting that history calls it the Dahlgren raid and not the Kilpatrick raid after Gen. Judson Kilpatrick who actually led it-and with so many formidable cavalry units and commanders in Davis' employ, John Wilkes Booth of all people winds up as the commander of the confederate Seal Team Six for the kidnapping and the assassination.

In addition it takes over a year for Booth to try a kidnapping and another month to try his hand at assassination.

Bill Richter has depicted Robert E. Lee as being involved in the enterprise. Lee was renowned for being the last of the great practitioners of Napoleonic speed and violence. No doubt Lee was familiar with Napoleon's maxim "I may lose a battle but I never lose time."

If Lee had been involved we might have been taught in school that on 4/14/64 not 65 a confederate cavalry unit snatched up Lincoln and Stanton while they were visiting the Soldiers Home. The date of course is purely whimsical as I do not know the precise date Lincoln and Stanton made the first of their visits to the Soldiers Home in 1864.
Tom
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01-30-2013, 12:07 PM
Post: #108
RE: "Alias Paine"
Good points, Tom, and some that reiterate what we have said earlier on this forum.

In an effort to outdo "Last Word Wick," (and I am smiling when I say that because I like to have the last word too), we tend to forget about the pre-planning that went into the final act of assassination. Joe Beckert has mentioned this earlier on our forum and recently sent me a personal e-mail: "There was chaos, but it was Booth's brand of chaos. Not sanctioned by a Gov't that was in disarray and not really useful to them, in my opinion. And it was met with a swift and heavy hand. This was a chaos that was basically useless to the CSA. Would a different timing of some chaos, at a different time be more useful? Sure it would, but the claims ring true. Davis did favor guerilla warfare. The Harney mission is an example of a last ditch effort in that respect. That plan was merely weeks before the assassination. All this clearly lands in Booth's lap. All the options that would have availed the CSA at an earlier time were executed a few weeks too late. I place the blame for that on Booth."

Those who study the assassination know that Booth's earlier kidnap scheme was at least the fourth such plot, with the earliest ones dating back to 1862. Then, we must consider that his plans began at least in the summer of 1864 - and during a period when the Confederacy could still have benefitted. Don't put the cart before the horse and start quoting battlefield authors who are explaining what happened after April 9, 1865. Think of what was supposed to happen and how the Confederacy could have benefitted.

Joe feels as Mr. Hall and many other respected scholars in the assassination field do - in the end, Booth became a loose cannon and took it upon himself to carry out the COME RETRIBUTION plan. His hope was that there was still some spark of military and civilian fight left that would ignite a miracle. If not, he had made his point anyhow in denouncing someone that he and many others considered a tyrant.

Sidebars: As to Foster appointing a Secretary of State, if the constitutional procedure were to be followed, wouldn't there have to be Advice and Consent from the Senate - which would consume days?

Also, I note that you again disparage Come Retribution. Two days ago, you admitted that you had not read it. Has that changed? Just for the record, Come Retribution is not my "be all end all" of assassination books to read. However, it forms a solid base along with American Brutus, Blood on the Moon, Sic Semper Tyrannis, and several others that must be considered in order to get a full picture on which to base judgment.
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01-30-2013, 05:00 PM
Post: #109
RE: "Alias Paine"
Tom, I believe that if you will look at Last Confed Heroes again, you will see that the plotters against Lincoln are excused in their slowness by the fact that they were civilians, not military men under the command of Lee or really anyone else. No offense.
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01-30-2013, 07:37 PM
Post: #110
RE: "Alias Paine"
More important to me than having the last word is having the correct one, and I remain convinced that I do.

That said, I really don't care much anymore. The study of Lincoln's assassination has always been tangential to the study of Lincoln himself for me. I only started in it because of Everton Conger, and, call me a "stand-patter" if you wish but I'm perfectly content in my view that Booth was the mastermind of a plot that turned from his own thoughts of kidnapping to murder after Lincoln made his speech regarding black voting and citizenship. I also remain convinced that meetings with members of the Confederate underground are a far cry from a distinct affiliation that resulted in Lincoln's murder, and the lack of evidence to the contrary bolsters that view. If I'm required to see things which aren't there, then I'll stick with what I can see and be done with it.

Ida's calling me.

Best
Rob

Abraham Lincoln in the only man, dead or alive, with whom I could have spent five years without one hour of boredom.
--Ida M. Tarbell

I want the respect of intelligent men, but I will choose for myself the intelligent.
--Carl Sandburg
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01-30-2013, 08:10 PM
Post: #111
RE: "Alias Paine"
At this point, I shall let you have the last word, Mr. Wick. There is no sense arguing with a stone wall.
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01-30-2013, 10:04 PM (This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 10:24 PM by J. Beckert.)
Post: #112
RE: "Alias Paine"
I really don't put much stock in anything that can't be proven with regard to the assassination with the one exception that the CSA was involved with Booth early on. Even if it was a rogue tangent unofficially run by Judah Benjamin without the official blessing of Jefferson Davis, I still believe it was there. The travels and contacts Booth made sew it up for me. When I say early on, I mean in Oct., 1864, a mere 6 months before the act, Booth goes to Montreal and immediately upon his return, knows to contact Dr.'s Queen and Mudd - two southern sympathizers in Maryland. The money trail accompanies my thinking in regards to this, also. He puts his very successful and profitable acting career on hold. His plans for kidnapping become a train wreck and still determined to be the savior of the south, he turns his plans to assassination. He does this with no contact (that I can see) with the CSA he was involved with a short time earlier. To me, he decided this on his own, most likely after his emotions were set afire by Lincoln's speech on April 11th. and he took things into his own hands, still believing that he was still operating with the best intentions and blessings of the CSA. Being cut off from the Gov't. that was by April 14th. in tatters, he makes his "great and decisive" blow, hoping that it's not too late for the CSA to regroup somehow and if not turn the tides, at least buy some time. Nothing can be proven, but like I said, I can't see it any other way. Makes sense or no?

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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01-31-2013, 06:25 AM
Post: #113
RE: "Alias Paine"
(01-30-2013 10:04 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  Nothing can be proven, but like I said, I can't see it any other way. Makes sense or no?

Joe, at least for me, I am unclear on the "the Parker House meeting." I asked this once before:

Mr. James O. Hall wrote, "No record has been found to show that Booth was considering this scheme prior to the time he registered at the Parker House on July 26, 1864. Yet the evidence is persuasive that he left the hotel four days later for Baltimore to enlist the first two recruits into the evolving conspiracy that would ultimately take the life of Abraham Lincoln."

Also, on July 24, 1864, Booth wrote to Isabel Sumner, "I will come at once to Boston."

So did Booth go to meet with Confederate agents or to see Isabel Sumner?

I am not saying ALL of his meetings with Confederate operatives have two or more interpretations, but I think that one does. It's evidence like this that has prevented me from becoming a person who has ever fully come over to "the Condederate theory." And, yes, I understand that a clandestine operation is not going to leave that much to go on.

Yet at the same time the Confederate theory is the only other theory other than the simple conspiracy one that makes sense to me. Other theories, such as the Roman Catholic Church was behind it, or Edwin Stanton masterminded it, are nonsensical to me.
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01-31-2013, 07:32 AM
Post: #114
RE: "Alias Paine"
I agree about the stay at the Parker House, Roger. The fact that he leaves for Baltimore from there and starts working on O'Laughlen and Arnold in short order tells me some type of spark was set of there. I wonder if the Montreal trip was mainly for funds.

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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01-31-2013, 09:43 AM
Post: #115
RE: "Alias Paine"
Joe, I should have also mentioned the "New York crowd" above. In other threads I have shown an interest in this. Yet I still find the concept to be "vague." My interest has been more out of curiosity rather than a sincere conviction the "New York crowd" was behind the Lincoln assassination. Perhaps more evidence on this theory will surface in the future.
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01-31-2013, 12:30 PM
Post: #116
RE: "Alias Paine"
The New York Crowd is taken care of in some detail in Rick Stelnick's forthcoming Dixie Reckoning. I have read the manuscript and while I find some of it rather wild, the essential thesis that he has found the New York Crown is convincing.
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01-31-2013, 01:35 PM
Post: #117
RE: "Alias Paine"
I have also read Mr. Stelnick's manuscript. It is highly detailed and highly difficult to get through, and the citations are not as distinct as I would like them to be -- I would also like to see some of the primary source materials that he claims to have access to.

However, if these sources are ever released to the public and verified, Mr. Stelnick may very well have identified the New York Crowd.

Bill - any idea when the book will be published?
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01-31-2013, 03:34 PM
Post: #118
RE: "Alias Paine"
No idea at all. The NJ hurricane and personal problems have sadly delayed it indefinitely
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07-26-2019, 02:06 PM
Post: #119
RE: "Alias Paine"
(01-29-2013 10:11 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  The story of Fanny being brought to the monitor to identify Powell is not in the first edition of Alias Paine. It was originally recounted by Tullio Verdi, the Seward's doctor, who accompanied Fanny to the monitor. It can be found in Google Books, The Republic, A Monthly Magazine, "The Assassination of the Sewards," Volume One, page 289.

"Conscientious, even at this trying moment, she could not identify the man; her identification, she thought, might be his death. She had only seen him by a dim light as in a frightful vision. That is all she said."

Here's a link to the Verdi article mentioned by Linda:

https://books.google.com/books?id=il03AQ...&q&f=false
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06-14-2021, 04:04 PM
Post: #120
RE: "Alias Paine"
A late observation;

Betty, in Alias Paine you make the observation that: 'Lewis E. Payne, former United States attorney from Wyoming, “whose name the assassin assumed,” wrote in June 1882 a lengthy and highly romanticized article about Powell. You never venture your opinion if you thought it true.

My thought is that; if it were true and Powell had the habit of picking up alias's from people he knew, then its possible he took the alias 'Wood' from the brothers who were sponsoring him in New York.

Thoughts?
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