Extra Credit Questions

[AussieMick]

Fascinating issue ....

(This isn't an Extra Question.... I genuinely don't know the answers. )

I hadn't considered the impact on the 3 children being left on their own.

Couple of questions, and estimates would be fine if anybody wants to make them .....
1. How soon after Nancy died did Thomas leave them?
2. How long was he away?
3. Were there any relatives close by that would have assisted the children?

[Gene C]

Dennis Hanks would have been about 18 years old when this happened, at a time when kids grew up a little faster than they do today.
He knew how to hunt, there wewe neighbors to look in on them. The local church, if they went, was also in walking distance.
Another cousin, John Hanks may have also lived in the area.

[AussieMick]

Thanks, Gene

[RJNorton]

Michael, I don't have exact dates on Thomas's leaving and returning, but he departed for Kentucky late in November of 1819. On December 2, 1819, he married Sarah Bush Johnston. He, Sarah, and Sarah's three children departed for Indiana later in December of 1819. Nancy Hanks Lincoln died on October 5, 1818, so it was over a year before Thomas re-married.

[David Lockmiller]

(05-10-2024 12:30 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  Fascinating issue ....

(This isn't an Extra Question.... I genuinely don't know the answers. )

I hadn't considered the impact on the 3 children being left on their own.

Couple of questions, and estimates would be fine if anybody wants to make them .....
1. How soon after Nancy died did Thomas leave them?
2. How long was he away?
3. Were there any relatives close by that would have assisted the children?

1. How soon after Nancy died did Thomas leave them?

On October 5, 1818, a week after her symptoms first appeared, she died, unattended by a physician. Nancy's body was buried at a gravesite near the cabin, where Betsy and Thomas Sparrow were already buried. No tombstone marked her final resting place, and no preacher delivered a funeral sermon until months later, when David Elkin arrived from Kentucky and spoke to a group of about twenty mourners gathered at the grave. (Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, p. 25)

Lincoln's sister Sarah, who was only 11 when her mother died, assumed the domestic responsibilities of cooking, cleaning, washing, mending clothes, and spinning wool. . . . But even with the help of kindly neighbors who pitched in, she could hardly replace her mother in the household. The gloom that settled over the cabin after Nancy Hanks Lincoln's death would not lift for more than a year, not until Thomas remarried. (p. 26)

The following is from Chapter Two Knox College online version of Abraham Lincoln: A Life:

In 1856, Lincoln told another friend how lonely life had been in the months following his mother’s death, and how he cherished hearing the Bible stories she had once told him, for they brought her voice back to his mind’s ear. The loneliness was compounded by the lack of a truly close friend; in Indiana Lincoln formed friendships with many of his contemporaries, but none was a confidant. In January 1861, Lincoln spoke of “the sad, if not pitiful condition of his father’s family” after Nancy Lincoln’s death.

William Herndon, perhaps reporting what Lincoln had told him, asserted that after the death of their mother, “little Abe and his sister Sarah began a dreary life – indeed, one more cheerless and less inviting seldom falls to the lot of any child. In a log-cabin without a floor, scantily protected from the severities of the weather, deprived of the comfort of a mother’s love, they passed through a winter the most dismal either one ever experienced.

Despite the benefits conferred by such a stepmother, the “profound agony” of the fifteen-month period between Nancy’s death and the advent of Sarah Bush Lincoln left its mark on Abe.

Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, p. 26-27 continued:

In the wake of Nancy's death, Lincoln's unsympathetic father failed to provide Abe with adequate care . . . . At one point Thomas left his two children with their young cousin Sophie Hanks (who had come to live with the Lincoln's around 1818) to fend for themselves while he drifted down the Ohio River to sell pork. He again left the children when he wooed Sarah Bush Lincoln in Kentucky, where, according to family tradition, he spent more time than he had intended to. One source alleged that the children, having given him up for dead, became "almost nude for the want of clothes and their stomachs became leathery from the want of food." By the time their new stepmother arrived at the end of 1819, she found Sarah and Abe "wild--ragged and dirty," and thought her stepson "the ugliest chap that ever obstructed my view."

When Thomas proposed marriage to Sarah Bush Johnston in Kentucky in the fall of 1819, it was the second time he had asked for her hand. They had known each other since childhood. . . .

Thomas courted his prospective bride matter-of-factly, blurting out to her one day as she was doing laundry: "Well Miss Johns[t]on, I have no wife & you have no husband. I came a purpose to marry you. I knowed you from a gal & you knowed me from a boy -- I have no time to lose and if you are willing, let it be done Straight off." She replied that it was "so sudden" and "asked time to consider, but he said he was not in a mood to fool away time on such an important business as wife hunting." To this she rejoined: "Tommy I know you well & have no objection to marrying you . . . ." Her friends and brothers urged her to accept the proposal. She assented, and so they were married on December 2, 1819.

Arriving in Indiana with her three children, Sarah was taken aback by the quasi-ursine condition of the Lincoln cabin and its inhabitants and quickly proceeded to improve both. "I dressed Abe & his sister up--looked more human," she recalled. She scrubbed them until they were "well & clean" and eliminated the lice that had take up residence in Abe's unruly hair."

[AussieMick]

I see that I have written that there were 3 children left when Thomas Lincon went wife-searching ... of course Abraham's brother Thomas (born 1812 or 1813) had died after only living a few days. So , it was just Abraham and Sarah in that 'home' surviving a long, cold, dark winter.


this is really extraordinary. Thanks very much.
This, IMO, would have been extremely character forming. Obviously, and Im sure all here are aware, sudden death was an issue for everybody in those days. Much more than it is now, I suggest. But to be without adult family support for over year would I think be very unusual. What was going through their minds ? That their father would never return?

For 2 young children to be left to their own devices for over a year ( Ok, friends and neighbours would have maybe provided some support).

As an aside I see that D.H. Donald in 'Lincoln' fails to specify that Thoma sLincoln was away for over a year and his children , more or less, were fending for themselves. In fact Donald suggest that Thomas Lincoln was only away for a very brief period. As I say, extraordinary.

[Gene C]

David - Thanks for mentioning Sophie. Very few biography's mention her.
Dennis and Sophie also must have mourned the loss of their family. I think Thomas loss and taking in two additional mouths to feed must have been overwhelming. I think he did the only thing he could do to fix the situation, Leave the kids for a short while and find them a suitable step mother, He chose wisely.

[David Lockmiller]

Obviously, if there had not been the marriage of Sarah Bush Johnston to Thomas Lincoln, there would never have been a President Abraham Lincoln.

And, where would the world have been now?

And, Doris Kearns Goodwin added this important observation: "Lincoln’s early intimacy with tragic loss reinforced a melancholy temperament. Yet his familiarity with pain and personal disappointment imbued him with a strength and understanding of human frailty. Moreover, Lincoln possessed a life-affirming humor and profound resilience that lightened his despair and fortified his will."

[RJNorton]

(05-11-2024 04:34 AM)AussieMick Wrote:  For 2 young children to be left to their own devices for over a year

Michael, Dennis Hanks, who was about 10 years older than Abraham, moved in with the Lincoln family after Hancy died. So it was 3 in the cabin when Thomas departed for Kentucky. Also, Thomas Lincoln was gone for a month at most (late November-December, 1819).

[AussieMick]

thanks for that, Roger , Gene and David. The shorter time span (and Dennis presence) does make it a ... little better. Not much , but a little.

I agree, Gene, Thomas would have been in quite a fix. But ... well, its easy for me to criticise. So I won't!

[Rob Wick]

Quote:Obviously, if there had not been the marriage of Sarah Bush Johnston to Thomas Lincoln, there would never have been a President Abraham Lincoln.

David,

While there is certainly no question that Sarah brought stability to the household, your comment is hyperbolic and unprovable, even as a matter of opinion. After Lincoln decamped to New Salem, Sarah's day-to-day influence on him was nonexistent. She played no discernable role in Lincoln's decision to study law, nor is there any evidence that she sparked his interest in politics or public speaking, all of which would eventually lead to the White House.

Given the amount of chance that enters every life, to point to a specific cause as conclusively leading to a particular outcome is simply incorrect.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(05-11-2024 07:13 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  

Quote:Obviously, if there had not been the marriage of Sarah Bush Johnston to Thomas Lincoln, there would never have been a President Abraham Lincoln.

David,

While there is certainly no question that Sarah brought stability to the household, your comment is hyperbolic and unprovable, even as a matter of opinion. After Lincoln decamped to New Salem, Sarah's day-to-day influence on him was nonexistent. She played no discernable role in Lincoln's decision to study law, nor is there any evidence that she sparked his interest in politics or public speaking, all of which would eventually lead to the White House.

Given the amount of chance that enters every life, to point to a specific cause as conclusively leading to a particular outcome is simply incorrect.

Best
Rob

Rob, please explain how Abraham and his sister would have moved forward from their then-current situation and into the rewarding future that Lincoln's new step-mother provided. Please try to keep your explanation short.

If you don't water the garden, you will have neither flowers or vegetables.

Rob, if you have a copy of Professor Burlingame's book, Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Volume One, I would suggest that you read the last paragraph on page 26 and the entire page 27 for a definitive answer to the question of the importance that his step-mother had in Abraham Lincoln's life.

[Rob Wick]

Quote:Please try to keep your explanation short.

That's rich coming from someone who can spout 15,000 words and not say anything.

Given that Sarah Lincoln Grigsby died in 1828, I don't know that I would suggest that Sarah Bush Johnston had much to do with her life.

As for the remainder of your comment, you obviously realized that you overstated the case because saying "explain how Abraham and his sister would have moved forward from their then-current situation and into the rewarding future that Lincoln's new step-mother provided" is a far cry from your original point that but for Sarah Bush Johnston, Abraham would have never been president.

No one can question that Thomas' new wife changed the equation for how the Lincolns lived after Nancy's death, but the original absurdity that you posted is, again, a far cry from this.

As for reading Burlingame, or any other Lincoln biographer for that matter, unlike you, I don't hold any author (even ones I admire) as infallible. When I quote from an author, it is to buttress my point. Try and understand that part, David. MY POINT! I think at this stage of my life, I know as much about Lincoln as any of them ever will.

Short enough for you?

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(05-11-2024 04:03 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  

Quote:Please try to keep your explanation short.

Short enough for you?

Best
Rob

Yes, it was short enough for me . . . but perhaps too long!

The words that you refuse to read and consider are:

Upon arriving in Indiana, Sarah was taken aback by the quasi-ursine condition of the Lincoln cabin, which she proceeded to improve forthwith.

When her new husband insisted that she sell some of her furniture, “saying it was too fine for them to keep,” she refused to do so. After replacing the crude puncheon tables and stools, she swiftly effected other improvements: a floor was laid down, doors and windows were installed, Abe and Sarah were dressed up with some of the abundant clothing she had brought from Kentucky, and “in a few weeks all had changed & where every thing was wanting now all was snug & comfortable.” She was a good cook, though her culinary skill was wasted on Abe, whom she described as “a moderate Eater” who obediently “ate what was set before him, making no complaint: he seemed Careless about this.”

[Such gustatory indifference persisted into adulthood. According to a White House secretary, Lincoln during his presidency “was one of the most abstemious of men; the pleasures of the table had few attractions for him.”]

Her meals were evidently nutritious, for the boy enjoyed good health. She probably served him the customary pioneer diet in Indiana, which consisted “mainly of cornbread on weekdays and wheatbread on Sundays; and mush and milk some of the time; pork, chickens, quails, squirrels and wild turkeys.” Occasionally she “used to get some sorghum and ginger and make some gingerbread. It wasn’t often, and it was our biggest treat,” Lincoln recalled.

Sarah Bush Lincoln tended to Abraham’s emotional as well as physical needs. Augustus H. Chapman reported that she “took an espical liking to young Abe” and “soon dressed him up in entire new clothes & from that time on he appeared to lead a new life.” She encouraged him to study, for she recognized that he was “a Boy of uncommon natural Talents,” which she did all she could to foster. As she told an interviewer, she moderated Thomas Lincoln’s reluctance to let Abe read: “I induced my husband to permit Abe to read and study at home as well as at school. At first he was not easily reconciled to it, but finally he too seemed willing to encourage him to a certain extent.”

The relationship between stepmother and stepson was remarkably close, as she remembered it: “I can say what scarcely one woman – a mother – can say in a thousand and it is this – Abe never gave me a cross word or look and never refused in fact, or Even in appearance, to do any thing I requested him.” She, in turn, “never gave him a cross word.” Abe and his stepmother were kindred souls, she thought: “His mind & mine – what little I had [–] seemed to run together – move in the same channel.” He “was dutiful to me always – he loved me truly I think.” She compared Abe favorably to her own son John: “Both were good boys, but I must Say . . . that Abe was the best boy I Ever Saw or Ever Expect to see.” He “always wanted to do just as I wanted him.”

Lincoln reciprocated the love of his stepmother, whom he called “mama.” In 1861, speaking “in the most affectionate manner,” he told Augustus H. Chapman that “she had been his best Friend in this world & that no Son could love a Mother more than he loved her.” Chapman concluded that “her love for him was warmly returned & continued to the day of his death. But few children loved their parents as he loved this Step Mother.” Joshua Speed, Lincoln’s closest confidant, thought that his “fondness for his step-mother and his watchful care over her after the death of his father [in 1851] deserves notice. He could not bear to have any thing said by any one against her.” Near the end of his life, Lincoln told Speed “of his affection for her and her kindness to him.” Curiously, Lincoln did not visit his stepmother often, even after his father had died. Perhaps he was reluctant to visit the paternal cabin lest it call to mind the one in Indiana where he had grown up.

[Rob Wick]

I guess I must have missed where Burlingame wrote that but for Sarah Bush Johnston, Lincoln would never have been elected president. Better luck next time.

Best
Rob