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Tom Emery · 11-12-2012, 07:12 PM

Roger, I'm familiar with Dr. Evans' book, and like it as well. I agree -- it really is worth a look.

I think that more needs to be understood / appreciated on Mary's mental state, and I like some of the points Dr. Evans addresses in his work.

Mary's life after Abraham's death was so troubled, that it's just sad. Her last seventeen years of life were a miserable existence.

I think it's unusual that we give so many celebrities a pass because of "mental illness." But it seems that Mary Lincoln never gets that pass, and too few people have any sympathy for her emotional struggles.

Also, so many First Ladies have had such unusual quirks to their personalities or habits. I could go on and on, and I'm sure the rest of you could on that subject, too. But Mary Lincoln gets a harder rap than the rest do.

You probably can see how sympathetic I am to Mary. I know, I know -- historians are supposed to be unbiased. But I just think that Mary Lincoln gets a bad deal.

HerbS · 11-12-2012, 07:38 PM

Tom,I feel the same way you do.Even today,people have a hard time with depression and anxiety!

L Verge · 11-12-2012, 09:30 PM

It is so nice to see some male historians viewing the other side of Mary Lincoln. Thank you.

Ashley Norman · (This post was last modified: 11-16-2012 08:31 PM by Ashley Norman.)

I think that Mary was very misunderstod. She was pleagued by greif from a young age and people of that time period didn't quite know what to do about Mary's emotions and mistook it for being insane. I find Mary very interesting she was ultimately a very smart woman. A lot of what Abraham did to get elected was accomplished with her urging. I realize not qll of it was her but I do think she knew what needed to be done and helped boost his career. I as well think Abe loved Ann Rutlege but i think he also loved Mary in a different way i think she reminded him some of his mother as well as Ann not fully though. From all the information I have found on Mary it is very safe to say Mary loved Abe very deeply. I think also they had a bond of friendship that helped them as a couple to some degree.

L Verge · 11-16-2012, 08:44 PM

Ashley,

I'm trying to find time to read the new book of essays on MTL entitled The Mary Lincoln Enigma. If you haven't read it, you might want to check it out. Written by a variety of contributors (albeit most of them men), it will be interesting to see a variety of opinions on what made Mary tick.

Ashley Norman · (This post was last modified: 11-18-2012 04:18 PM by Ashley Norman.)

(07-16-2012 11:02 AM)Gene C Wrote: OK, I'm going to say it, and I hope I don't offend anyone.
I think her hormones were out of balance.

They may have been part of the problem but you also have to factor in the grief she knew all to well. she may have been borderline of mulitpal personality. she she was a smart women but she may not have had a proper hold on her emotions.

there are so many things to look at when deciding on what exactly was wrong with Mary. She had her mother Die at a young age and may not have always had the best relationship with her step mother. Her problems may have started around that time when she was about 4 with a new mother figure.

there are so many things that Mary went throguht that may have tarnished her life in numerous ways.

(11-16-2012 08:44 PM)L Verge Wrote: Ashley,

I'm trying to find time to read the new book of essays on MTL entitled The Mary Lincoln Enigma. If you haven't read it, you might want to check it out. Written by a variety of contributors (albeit most of them men), it will be interesting to see a variety of opinions on what made Mary tick.

I will diffently look into that book thanks for the suggestion.
Mary is hard for even women to even fully understand so it will be interesting to see what men have said and see what they think did make her the way she was.

Mike B. · (This post was last modified: 11-18-2012 10:41 PM by Mike B..)

For those interested in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma."

Douglas Wilson gives a very convincing in my mind at least look at the whole Herndon vs. Mary meme.

He makes the case, that a lot of it is based on circular reasoning:

Why did Herndon say bad things about Mary? He hated her. How do we know we hated her? He said bad things about her...

He makes a strong case again in my mind, that the supposed hatred didn't really exist between them until his Ann Rutlede lecture, which as was noted above even if true was in very poor taste for a grieving widow. Most of the very negative material he collected on her was when they were on fairly good terms before the Ann Rutledge lecture.

Dr. James Brust who has worked with Jason Emerson makes the case in the book of bi-polar disorder for Mary. Of course, certainty is impossible but if true (as someone who has unfortunetly dealt with a family member with this issue) it could explain a lot and it should engender sympathy. Mental illness is just as much as an illness as physical illness.

On Mary's political skills, I have to disagree respectfully with those who claim she had great skill in this area (which is also in the book.) While she was highly educated and intelligent (look at the wit in her letters) there really isn't much in the record to claim she had some sort of political partnership with her husband ala John/Abagail Adams, Bill/Hillary Clinton, or FDR/Eleanor. Daniel Epstein wrote a book on the Lincoln marriage that really pushed that case. He even implied that Lincoln got Mary to approve his speeches. I looked in vain in the footnotes for this evidence and found none.

Dear Tom Emery,

I think I would tend to disagree with this sentence:

"I think it's unusual that we give so many celebrities a pass because of "mental illness." But it seems that Mary Lincoln never gets that pass, and too few people have any sympathy for her emotional struggles."

Remember most defenders of Mary in the past have argued she DIDN'T suffer from mental illness. The argument from her most ardent biographer defenders is that she was framed by her son. Jean Baker's book even goes so far as to accuse Robert of bribing jurors (though shamefully her footnote for this startling claim does not back up that charge).

Also,
even Herndon of all people (and he did hate her by the time he wrote the biography of her) gave her some sympathy in this regard and blamed Lincoln for not making her life any easier.

(11-18-2012 10:22 PM)Mike B. Wrote: For those interested in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma."

Douglas Wilson gives a very convincing in my mind at least look at the whole Herndon vs. Mary meme.

He makes the case, that a lot of it is based on circular reasoning:

Why did Herndon say bad things about Mary? He hated her. How do we know we hated her? He said bad things about her...

He makes a strong case again in my mind, that the supposed hatred didn't really exist between them until his Ann Rutlede lecture, which as was noted above even if true was in very poor taste for a grieving widow. Most of the very negative material he collected on her was when they were on fairly good terms before the Ann Rutledge lecture.

Dr. James Brust who has worked with Jason Emerson makes the case in the book of bi-polar disorder for Mary. Of course, certainty is impossible but if true (as someone who has unfortunetly dealt with a family member with this issue) it could explain a lot and it should engender sympathy. Mental illness is just as much as an illness as physical illness.

On Mary's political skills, I have to disagree respectfully with those who claim she had great skill in this area (which is also in the book.) While she was highly educated and intelligent (look at the wit in her letters) there really isn't much in the record to claim she had some sort of political partnership with her husband ala John/Abagail Adams, Bill/Hillary Clinton, or FDR/Eleanor. Daniel Epstein wrote a book on the Lincoln marriage that really pushed that case. He even implied that Lincoln got Mary to approve his speeches. I looked in vain in the footnotes for this evidence and found none.

Dear Tom Emery,

I think I would tend to disagree with this sentence:

"I think it's unusual that we give so many celebrities a pass because of "mental illness." But it seems that Mary Lincoln never gets that pass, and too few people have any sympathy for her emotional struggles."

Remember most defenders of Mary in the past have argued she DIDN'T suffer from mental illness. The argument from her most ardent biographer defenders is that she was framed by her son. Jean Baker's book even goes so far as to accuse Robert of bribing jurors (though shamefully her footnote for this startling claim does not back up that charge).

Also,
even Herndon of all people (and he did hate her by the time he wrote the biography of her) gave her some sympathy in this regard and blamed Lincoln for not making her life any easier.

Sorry, I keep quoting myself...to reply.

I agree with Laurie V. about the chemical imbalance part of the equation. We (I mean science and doctors) know a lot more about this subject today than they did in the 19th century.

There are medications today that could have helped with possible post-partum or bi-polar or whatever mental sickness she had (if you agree she suffered from it).

And I believe me I have nothing but sympathy for mental illness because of certain things I have had to deal with with family members. In a way, people don't understand. It is not something a person can just "snap out of;" it is as Laurie V. said a true neuro-chemical problem. Often the people who suffer from these illnesses know what they are doing is not "logical" but they can not stop.

I know people have very strong feelings if Mary qualifies as one of those.

Gene C · 11-19-2012, 07:56 AM

Didn't she also suffer from severe headaches?

J. Beckert · 11-19-2012, 09:11 AM

She suffered from severe migraines. I've never had one, but I've heard they're debilitating. I think they rendered her bedridden for days.

HerbS · 11-19-2012, 09:59 AM

Mary is a classic case of depression and anxiety! Perhaps a-Bi-Polar disorder!

JMadonna · 11-19-2012, 10:30 AM

Tend to agree Herb. Mary's main problem is that she had to suffer from her demons publicly.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2012 11:05 AM by Gene C.)

(11-19-2012 10:30 AM)JMadonna Wrote: Tend to agree Herb. Mary's main problem is that she had to suffer from her demons publicly.

Oh my gosh, she was demon possesed too? Big Grin

That adds a new dimension to the spiritualist & seances in the White House .

Rogerm · 11-19-2012, 10:46 AM

Did Mary's fall from the horse carriage aggravate her symptoms?

RJNorton · 11-19-2012, 01:03 PM

Hi Roger. My memory is that Robert Lincoln felt that way. I cannot remember where I read it, but I do recall reading somewhere that Robert felt his mother never fully recovered from that nasty accident.

Ashley Norman · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2012 01:50 PM by Ashley Norman.)

(11-19-2012 10:46 AM)Rogerm Wrote: Did Mary's fall from the horse carriage aggravate her symptoms?

I don't think it aggravated her symotms, it caused sever headaches which lasted through the rest of her life some days it wasn't as painful of a head ache and other days she sufford extreme migrianes.
She wasn't never able to be fully cured after she hit her head in the carriage accident.

(11-19-2012 01:48 PM)Ashley Norman Wrote:
(11-19-2012 10:46 AM)Rogerm Wrote: Did Mary's fall from the horse carriage aggravate her symptoms?

I don't think it aggravated her symotms, it caused sever headaches which lasted through the rest of her life some days it wasn't as painful of a head ache and other days she sufford extreme migrianes.
She wasn't never able to be fully cured after she hit her head in the carriage accident.

I also agree with Roger that Robert seemed to think it did.

(11-19-2012 07:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: Didn't she also suffer from severe headaches?

Yes after the carriage accident she had continual headaches for the rest of her life.