Not a Socialist, But a Marxist?

[L Verge]

Hopefully some who are good at pulling up current newspaper articles can give you a usable link to this lengthy article that appeared in this past Sunday's edition of The Washington Post, page C5. Penned by Gillian Brockell, it proclaims that "Lincoln Was Not a Socialist...But He Sure Liked Marx."

It is based on the December 1861, first annual message that Lincoln sent to Congress --what we now term The State of the Union Address. The next day, it was featured in newspapers across the country, including in Confederate states. Just to give you a hint, here's the first few paragraphs of the article:

"He railed against the 'disloyal citizens' rebelling against the Union, touted the strength of the Army and Navy, and updated Congress on the budget.

"For his eloquent closer, he chose not a soliloquy on unity or freedom, but an 800-word meditation on what the Chicago Tribune subtitled 'Capital Versus Labor.'

"'Labor is prior to and independent of capital,' the country's 16th president said. 'Capital is only the fruit of labor and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital and deserves much the higher consideration.'

"If you think that sounds like something Karl Marx would write, well, that might be because Lincoln was regularly reading Karl Marx."

Of course, in true Post fashion, the writer takes a swipe at President Trump... From that point on, however, I found the article very interesting from a historical perspective. If it can't be posted here, I will try to find time to hit some of the highlights.

[Gene C]

I think Lincoln probably would have preferred Groucho Marx

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."
Groucho

[Rob Wick]

In the 1930s, Ida Tarbell investigated the question of whether or not Marx and Lincoln corresponded. I think the WaPo author's use of the phrase "exchanged letters" implies that both men wrote each other personally. To date, no evidence has ever been found that they did. Here is the correspondence from Tarbell's papers. Of particular interest is the correspondence between Tarbell and Daniel Hoan, the socialist mayor of Milwaukee (fun fact: Milwaukee had three Socialist mayors. One, Emil Seidel, had a fledgling poet as his secretary by the name of Carl Sandburg).

https://dspace.allegheny.edu/handle/1045...one&page=1

Here's the link to the WaPo article, although I'm not sure if you'll be able to read it. Overall, while not completely accurate historically, I thought its tone was balanced.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2...0b8c6915d6

Best
Rob

[Rogerm]

This is the first time that I have ever read the claim that Charles Dana was a socialist.

[AussieMick]

the statement
"If you think that sounds like something Karl Marx would write, well, that might be because Lincoln was regularly reading Karl Marx."
... is about as useful as ***** (word that rhymes with grits) on a bull. Regularly? as in daily? or monthly? would you believe ....

Oh, and the implication (to some) would be that Abe was dragging down Das Kapital every morning to read along with his Bible.

I belive that Dana was influential in getting New York Tribune's Greeley to print occasional articles by the hairy-faced know-all, thus subsidising his costs of cigars and maybe even helping to feed his large family and minimising the need to scrounge off that cotton capitalist Engels.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/10/1...karl-marx/

[Steve]

Here's a link to the same article printed in another paper without a paywall:

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/2019072...am-lincoln

I have to respectfully disagree with Rob that the tone of the article is balanced. For instance, the author quotes Lincoln's reply to the New York Workingmen's Democratic Republican Association of March 21, 1864 but the quote is cherrypicked and removed from its context. Here's the quote in context which follows his recitation of the 1861 Annual Address to Congress:

The views then expressed remain unchanged, nor have I much to add. None are so deeply interested to resist the present rebellion as the working people. Let them beware of prejudice, working division and hostility among themselves. The most notable feature of a disturbance in your city last summer, was the hanging of some working people by other working people. It should never be so. The strongest bond of human sympathy, outside of the family relation, should be one uniting all working people, of all nations, and tongues, and kindreds. Nor should this lead to a war upon property, or the owners of property. Property is the fruit of labor ---property is desirable --- --- is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.


The quote of "uniting all working people, of all nations, and tongues, and kindreds" follows Lincoln mentioning the New York draft riots of the previous year where white rioters, mostly Irish immigrants, attacked black workingmen. (Along with white women married to black men, businesses [both white and black] which catered to black clients, and destroying the Colored Orphanage.)

Lincoln then follows the quote talking about the virtues of property, industry, refraining from violence, and becoming rich through one's labor.

I also would like to point out that the first volume of Das Kapital wasn't published until 1867, two years after Lincoln's death. So, a coherent "Marxist philosophy" didn't quite exist at this time. Also, the International Workingmen's Association, which Marx was a member, wasn't founded until September 1864, so the New York group couldn't have been a chapter of it in March 1864.

---

Here's a link to an 1863 pamphlet of the New York Workingmen's Democratic Republican Association from the Sotheby's website, if anybody's interested:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecat....2142.html

[AussieMick]

I was being a bit flippant about Abe having a daily reading of Das Kapital. Taking my time, I should have written The Manifesto written 1848
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

I was recently reading (on this forum maybe) about a letter Marx and his mates sent, after much re-writing, to Lincoln. I'll search for the link.

here it is ...
https://www.marxists.org/history/interna...letter.htm

[Steve]

(08-02-2019 01:58 AM)AussieMick Wrote:  I was being a bit flippant about Abe having a daily reading of Das Kapital. Taking my time, I should have written The Manifesto written 1848
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

I was recently reading (on this forum maybe) about a letter Marx and his mates sent, after much re-writing, to Lincoln. I'll search for the link.

here it is ...
https://www.marxists.org/history/interna...letter.htm

Mick,
The Wikipedia article on the Communist Manifesto you linked to itself says that the Manifesto, even though written in 1848, remained obscure until the late 1860's - early 1870's which is still after Lincoln's death and around when the first volume of Das Kapital was printed.

[Rob Wick]

Steve,

I'm sorry, but I can't see where the quote you mention makes the article unbalanced. Clearly, the author notes "Of course, Lincoln was not a socialist, nor communist nor Marxist" and later (after the quote you refer to) writes "Lincoln never took up the mantle of socialism. He believed in the system of wage labor even as he proposed reforms to it; Marx rejected it as another form of slavery."

So I would ask, did the quote the writer used represent Lincoln's point of view or not? Whether it was a more eloquent version of "working men of the world, unite," is an arguable point, but surely no one can dispute that the quote itself represented how Lincoln felt about the workingmen of this country. As a former journalist, I see the danger of taking a quote out of context as meaning that the quote does not represent a person's point of view.

I feel this distinction is important, because there is a world of difference in writing for a popular outlet like the Washington Post and writing for the Journal of American History. In neither is it permissible to do violence to a person's beliefs, but in this case the author did not do that. Using that "cherrypicked" quote still represented, as I believe it, Lincoln's position. I always remember a story Tarbell related that I used in my article on Tarbell's study of Lincoln's development of democratic ideals.

“Years ago, walking on the top of the wall around the English town of Chester, I found in the guard house at one corner of the wall, a picture of Lincoln, and the guard said to me quite simply, ‘He was a friend of us poor men.’” To me, that says it all.

Best
Rob

[RJNorton]

(08-01-2019 10:00 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  I think the WaPo author's use of the phrase "exchanged letters" implies that both men wrote each other personally. To date, no evidence has ever been found that they did.

I second Rob on this. In the past I have searched for a Lincoln letter to Marx and drawn a blank. IMO, no way they were "pen pals."

[ELCore]

Hello, my friends! Long time no see.

That ridiculous Washington Post article is making the rounds of social media again. I finally bit the bullet, so to speak, and have written a rebuttal. If you have a chance, take a look, and let me know what you think. Thanks!

Abraham Lincoln and Karl Marx

I may add something, eventually, about Tarbell's research into the Socialists' claims that Lincoln wrote letters to Marx. But I think my article is complete as it is.

[AussieMick]

There is no evidence that Lincoln personally wrote to Marx . We do know that Lincoln wrote a letter to Queen Victoria (when Prince Albert died) during the Civil War.
So seems to me the score is
Karl Marx 0 Queen Victoria 1

P.S. I agree with Gene (next post) you have written a very good ,concise, article .

[Gene C]

Good article. I would keep it as it is, you did a good job of setting the record straight.
Make it to long and people might not read it.

[ELCore]

(11-13-2020 04:15 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  Karl Marx 0 Queen Victoria 1

---

(11-13-2020 04:21 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Good article. I would keep it as it is, you did a good job of setting the record straight.
Make it to long and people might not read it.

Thanks to both of you!

[Rob Wick]

Lane,

Overall, I think your article is well-written and accurate. There is one point I would nitpick.

"Whenever these claims appear, they are usually greeted with glee, seldom with skepticism, and rarely with refutation."

I disagree with that characterization. Most serious students of Lincoln (as you point out in the second half of your piece) do not give any credence to this claim. If there is any "glee" is comes from people who want it to be true.

Other than that, very well done.

Best
Rob