Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets

[RJNorton]

(06-10-2019 11:30 AM)James Wrote:  Then the photos on page 110 and 216. You have to admit that as stand alone images, those poses are unusual at best.

James, I am trying to understand how you interpret photos. My eyes do not see any weakness at all. To me, the poses are not unusual. Can you please look at the photo of Robert Lincoln on p. 289. In that photo do your eyes see that Robert's left shoulder, arm, and hand are compromised? Why or why not? Thank you for explaining your thoughts in interpreting the Robert photo.

[James]

Hello Roger ... I like your "questions" better than Susan's.
Robert Lincoln's pose on page 289 is perfectly normal. Both arms extended as they should be for such a pose. There is no "hitch in his giddyup" noticeable on either arm. There are also no documented references suggesting a physical ailment associated with Robert that I've ever run across. Obviously, my interest in Robert Lincoln is minimal at best since he doesn't appear in the dag image. There is nothing in that image that would give one pause or raise a red flag if one were searching for signs of a physical ailment.
Abraham Lincoln, his father, is a whole different kettle of fish. There are more than a couple of documented references suggesting a physical ailment associated with his right side. Written descriptions are oftentimes open to interpretation dependent upon the author's ability or intent when describing events; and the reader's ability to digest or perceive the message being conveyed. Photographs remove a lot of the interpretive privilege enjoyed by readers (eye roll).
In the images on 110 and 216, Lincoln's pose is unusual, more so in 216 than 110. His right arm is not fully extended, for no apparent reason. A normal pose would be similar to that in the "Cooper Union" portrait. Right arm fully extended at his side.
There are multiple instances scattered throughout the photographic record showing Lincoln's right hand curled up or clenched while resting in his lap while seated in a chair. In many of these pics, his left arm is resting on the left arm of the chair, which would be normal. His right arm should be resting on the right arm of the chair.
Look at the 1846 - '48 daguerreotype. Look at his right hand. Again, it's subtle. A lot of these instances are subtle. They could very easily fly under the radar if one were simply browsing photos of Lincoln. But if one were actually looking for evidence of a physical ailment, then they become much more pronounced.
If you're not searching for something, then you're probably not going to find it.
The preponderance of the visual and circumstantial evidence (contrived excuses and explanations) leave little doubt to an objective observer that something was amiss on Lincoln's right side. Exactly what that "something" was has most likely fallen through the cracks of the historical record and been lost forever, but the fact that it existed is supported by the visual evidence that has manage to survive. Again, just my thoughts on it.
Hey Roger, you like a good joke? Check this one out. This is the latest one making the rounds out here in the real world.
So what do call Abe Lincoln's stovepipe hat - a pair of bloody gloves - a fan - and a mantel clock???
Answer - THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG!
Don't tell that one to Dave. He's liable to blow a gasket! (he thinks I'm annoying.)

[RJNorton]

(06-11-2019 11:09 AM)James Wrote:  In the images on 110 and 216, Lincoln's pose is unusual, more so in 216 than 110. His right arm is not fully extended, for no apparent reason. A normal pose would be similar to that in the "Cooper Union" portrait. Right arm fully extended at his side.

All I can say is my eyes do not interpret this as Lincoln having a compromised right shoulder, arm, and hand. My first impression would be that Gardner said something like, "Mr. President, why don't you bend your right elbow for this one?" I have no explanation why Gardner would do that...maybe Lincoln just decided to do it on his own. My eyes simply and honestly do not see it as a sign of right side weakness.

[L Verge]

Since the Kunhardts' Illustrated Biography seems to be your main source of information, James, I have pulled our duplicate copy from the James O. Hall Research Center here at Surratt House and keep it by my desk. I just spent less than ten minutes going through other photos in that book that (according to your appraisal) show an epidemic of CW era folks with compromised shoulders, arms, and/or hands:

pg. 175 - Willie Lincoln must have inherited his father's affliction because he is posed with his right hand clutching the fabric of his left sleeve in order to gain support.
pg. 176 - Another unusual pose of Mr. Lincoln with both arms in different positions. I've always thought this one was taken right as he stopped biting a fingernail on his left hand.
pg. 193 - A very Napoleonic pose of Gen. Burnside using his military coat to support his afflicted right arm.
pg. 208 - Gen. Hooker hiding his deformed right arm behind his back.
pg. 221 - Three choice photos of unusual arm positions; two of actresses Charlotte Cushman and Maggie Mitchell and one of Gen. Grant with his poor, disabled right hand just dangling from the wrist while the back of a chair supports what must be his useless arm.

Folks, see how easy it is to play tricks?!

[AussieMick]

(06-10-2019 01:06 AM)James Wrote:  Mick ...I don't play the guessing game. I don't deal with hypotheticals. I can state unequivocally, based on the incontrovertible evidence available, that the sitters pictured in the daguerreotype are Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln. Therefore - the height differential - based on every last scrap of information documented in the historical record, is precisely fourteen inches. The visual evidence in the image bears that out. Because there a lot more of you folks than there are of me doesn't make you right. An unassailable truth will not be forever restrained by a show of hands.
Hazarding a guess appears to be a favorite pastime for the Lincoln Community.

Ok, James. Thanks. So you dont play the guessing game? What do you call all this drivel about Lincoln's arm being 'compromised' ?

[Steve]

I just want to add something about the dating of the daguerreotype. Looking at the image of it in its preserver on the website. Although the daguerreotype is not in a case, it sure looks like the preserver doesn't have reinforced corners. Preservers for daguerreotypes made as late as 1861 usually had reinforced corners, especially for daguerreotypes made in a major city like Washington at such a late date. So I don't see how it's possible for the daguerreotype to have been made in March 1861 in Washington. Based on the couple's clothing, hairstyles and the mat, I would tentatively date your daguerreotype to the mid-1850's

[Eva Elisabeth]

James - re. "There are more than a couple of documented references suggesting a physical ailment associated with his right side" - can you please provide some of those sources to check out? Thanks.
(It doesn't change the couple doesn't look like the Lincolns. Also I still am curious as for Mary's sudden secret weight loss and quick jojo-effect, as no other photo nor dress of her during Lincoln's lifetime matches that XS size.)

[Steve]

I've reposted the image of the daguerreotype. I have a question that might seem odd at first, but I want other people's opinions. Do you think the man is wearing a hairpiece? I ask because looking at the photo and you can see graying hair on the man's beard and to left side of the man's head over his ear (left side of the viewer with the man's hand holding the cane, it'd be the man's own right). You can see the gray go up to the top from that side on the back but the front center of the man's hair has no gray. The right side may or may not have gray, I can't tell if the lightness in the hair comes from the light source or not.

I'm not making an argument one way or the other yet. I just want other people's opinions. Am I seeing something that's really there or is it just an illusion?

[AussieMick]

The hair could have been subjected to oiling ... the lady's hair too looks unusually shiny. I dont think its unusual for a man's facial hair to have slightly different coloring or greyer than the hair on top of his head.

---

One other issue that I have (the height difference/similarity is apparently something that James refuses to acknowledge ... quite frankly it simply rules out this image being Lincoln and Mary ... full stop) ...

My other issue is that the man has a watch chain near the last button of his waistcoat.
In all of the images that I have seen of Lincoln his watch chain is always either at the top button or the second from top. Never down near the bottom.

[Susan Higginbotham]

I don't think he's wearing a hairpiece. His hair does look tidier than that of Lincoln.

[James]

(06-11-2019 02:12 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-11-2019 11:09 AM)James Wrote:  In the images on 110 and 216, Lincoln's pose is unusual, more so in 216 than 110. His right arm is not fully extended, for no apparent reason. A normal pose would be similar to that in the "Cooper Union" portrait. Right arm fully extended at his side.

All I can say is my eyes do not interpret this as Lincoln having a compromised right shoulder, arm, and hand. My first impression would be that Gardner said something like, "Mr. President, why don't you bend your right elbow for this one?" I have no explanation why Gardner would do that...maybe Lincoln just decided to do it on his own. My eyes simply and honestly do not see it as a sign of right side weakness.

As I said earlier, Roger, we'll have to agree to disagree. On page nine is a glaring typo that should never, ever have made it past proofreaders or editors. I can't believe the Kunhardts didn't catch it. Can you spot it?

[AussieMick]

James, you're having a lend of us aren't you?

The man's hairline is nothing like Lincoln's.

He is missing Lincoln's distinctive 'mole' or skin protuberance on the right side of his face (just above the right 'corner' of his mouth).

That man in the image is no more than 6 inches taller than the lady.

He is not wearing a watch chain in the style that Lincoln used to wear his watch chain.

That lady, if she was Mary, should look about 9 years younger than the man. She doesn't. 2 or 3 years older maybe.

[RJNorton]

(06-11-2019 10:08 PM)James Wrote:  As I said earlier, Roger, we'll have to agree to disagree. On page nine is a glaring typo that should never, ever have made it past proofreaders or editors. I can't believe the Kunhardts didn't catch it. Can you spot it?

It was Lincoln's left eye, not right eye, that was "roving."

[L Verge]

(06-11-2019 11:05 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  James, you're having a lend of us aren't you?

The man's hairline is nothing like Lincoln's.

He is missing Lincoln's distinctive 'mole' or skin protuberance on the right side of his face (just above the right 'corner' of his mouth).

That man in the image is no more than 6 inches taller than the lady.

He is not wearing a watch chain in the style that Lincoln used to wear his watch chain.

That lady, if she was Mary, should look about 9 years younger than the man. She doesn't. 2 or 3 years older maybe.

IMO, a spot on observation. Thanks, Mick.

[James]

Roger - yes, that's it.

Mick - "Courage of Conviction" means not only standing behind WHAT you say, but also the manner in which you say it. Please don't do that again. That's not cool. Unless of course we all enjoy editorial powers that I'm unaware of. Just sayin.
Moving on. I've already addressed the things you mention. See below.


Abraham Lincoln was six feet - four inches tall. Mary was five feet - two inches tall. Abe's height was disproportionately in his unusually long legs. In the Abe and Mary image, when comparing the necklines and waistlines of the sitters, it is clear that there is an obvious and considerable height differential, even without factoring in Abe's long legs. According to his contemporaries, Abe was no taller than an average man when seated, that only when he stood dis he tower above other men due to his unusually long legs (Lincoln - An Illustrated Biography ... by Phillip and Peter Kunhardt). There is ample visual evidence of the fourteen inch disparity in height.
There are countless biographies that describe the physical traits and characteristics of both Abe and Mary. (Mary had dark brown hair, light blue eyes, etc.) There are a couple of points of note, one of which is also highlighted in the Kunhardt's book. Mary was seldom pleased with her photographic likeness, even attempting to have Matthew Brady destroy the negatives of some of her photos. She complained that her "look" was too stern and her hands would appear too large in her images.
One identifying scar that is not mentioned in her biographies is the large scar on her forehead above her right eye. It is quite distinctive in shape and size, appears clearly in the dag image, and in some of her other photos where the resolution permits such an examination.
While on the subject of Mary, years ago when the daguerreotype was still listed on eBay, the owner was contacted by Michael Ballard, an archivist at Mississippi State University and told that while he (Ballard) didn't necessarily agree with their assessment, a couple of Lincoln experts were convinced that the woman pictured was indeed Mary Todd Lincoln, but that they "couldn't reconcile the image of Abe". He said they thought the man seated next to her was most likely her father, Robert Smith Todd (who died in 1849). When pressed for more details on the subject later on, Mr. Ballard refused to respond to email inquiries. He has since passed away.
Abraham Lincoln was an extraordinarily physically distinctive man, to say the least. He had a multitude of identifying scars and characteristics, but only a few are described in any great detail in biographies. At the top of the list is the mole on the right side of his cheek centered in the crease to the right of his lips. (Albert Kaplan has a website titled ... lincolnportrait.com ... that goes into exhaustive detail about this and every other scar on Lincoln's face). This mole is very prominent in nearly all of Abe's photographs, with the exception of the 1846 daguerreotype and a few others. In some photos the mole is minimized due to the angle of his head and the lighting used by the photographer. For the same reasons just mentioned, in a couple of his photos, the mole is nearly non-existent.
In addition to the more publicized and well-known mole on the right side of his face, there were two moles on the left side of his face, with the uppermost of these two moles being in about the same location directly opposite the one on the right. The bottom left mole is hidden near the edge of his beard but the upper left mole can be seen clearly on the actual daguerreotype, and to a lesser extent in the online images.
Abe had a cleft in his chin that was very distinct in shape and size. The right side of Abe's face was more fully developed than the left side (some historians suggest this was the result of being kicked in the head by a horse as a young boy) and not only the cleft but the entire lower chin and even his nose "pulled" to the right. This is obvious in the dag image.
Abe had a row of pockmarks directly below his left lip that appear as a dark line in most of his photos due to a lack of resolution. These pockmarks are seen in the dag image.
Abe had a blemish or bump or whatever you want to call it directly above the corner of his upper left lip. This is seen some of his photos and in the dag image.
Abe had a small crescent shaped scar in the center of his right cheek in line with center of his nose. This scar is seen in some of his photos and in the dag image.
In the "Gettysburg" photo, a small but prominent knot or bump or blemish can be seen near the hairline about midway on his forehead above his left eye. Very few of his photos show this, but is seen in the dag image.
Abe's right lower lip was larger or thicker than his left lower lip. This is seen in all of his photos and in the dag image.
If one were to cover the right side of Abe's lips, he appears to frown. Cover the left side, he appears to smile. This is seen in most of his photos and in the dag image.
Abe's left eye would occasionally involuntarily "turn upward" or "lapse into a dull, vacant stare", as is documented by many sources. (This is also attributed to being kicked by a horse in the head). This is seen clearly in the dag image.
As described in the Kunhardt's book, Abe had a "characteristic tuft of hair protruding from behind his right ear". This is seen in the dag image.
Abe's hands have been described as large, sinewy, rough hewn. This is seen in the dag image.
Abe had a large scar on his left thumb resulting from a misplaced blow from an ax as a young man. There are no other photos of Abe to my knowledge that show this scar, but it is seen clearly in the dag image.
The manner in which Abe is clutching the cane is a subtle indication of his weakened right shoulder, arm and hand. The presence of the cane provides the perfect prop for this ailment. Otherwise, his right arm would be hanging limply to the side or placed awkwardly on his lap as it is in any of the photos that show his right side. Look at any of the full length photos that show him clutching a rolled up paper or something similar. Why did Leonard Volk ask Abe to hold a piece of whittled broomstick in his right hand when doing a casting of his hands?
Every single identifying mark, scar and characteristic that is known to be unique to either Abe or Mary is present in the dag image.
There is none, not a single solitary scar, mark or characteristic foreign to either Abe or Mary that is present in the dag image.
Mary is wearing a blue watered-silk gown with a white Point D'Alencon lace collar. How do I know it's Point D'Alencon? Because she's Mary Todd Lincoln, and as has been pointed out earlier, Mary was a "fashionista" ... meaning she wouldn't have been "caught dead" wearing anything other than Point D'Alencon lace.
Abe is clutching the gold-headed cane he carried to the inaugural ceremonies earlier that day. He is wearing one while holding the other of the white kid gloves he wore to the inaugural ball later that night.
The gold watch chain seen in the dag image is in possession of the Chicago History Museum.
Abe is freshly shaven for the first time since he started growing his beard in October 1860, as is documented and to be expected for an inauguration.
Referring once again to Lincoln - An Illustrated Biography, there is a photo of Lincoln taken in January or February (can't recall offhand) that shows a scraggly beard with pimples clearly visible in the sparse areas on his lower right cheek. Even the pimples can be seen under magnification of the actual daguerreotype and correspond to those seen in the Jan. or Feb. photograph.
It's the only known photograph of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln posed together, an original quarter plate daguerreotype taken the evening of March 4th, 1861. Period!