Extra Credit Questions

[L Verge]

(03-04-2019 04:15 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(03-04-2019 03:18 PM)L Verge Wrote:  As an analytical sidebar, I have wondered if Mr. Lincoln was just too tired after the traveling, the politicking, and finally running the war to even care what Tad was up to... Was it just easier to turn a blind eye or tune out the noise?

William Herndon wrote that the "let the children have a good time" attitude also existed in Springfield. This is from Herndon's Life of Lincoln:

"He (Abraham Lincoln) exercised no government of any kind over his household. His children did much as they pleased. Many of their antics he approved, and he restrained them in nothing. He never reproved them or gave them a fatherly frown. He was the most indulgent parent I have ever known. He was in the habit, when at home on Sunday, of bringing his two boys, Willie and Thomas — or "Tad" — down to the office to remain while his wife attended church. He seldom accompanied her there. The boys were absolutely unrestrained in their amusement. If they pulled down all the books from the shelves, bent the points of all the pens, overturned ink-stands, scattered law-papers over the floor, or threw the pencils into the spittoon, it never disturbed the serenity of their father's good-nature. Frequently absorbed in thought, he never observed their mischievous but destructive pranks — as his unfortunate partner did, who thought much, but said nothing — and, even if brought to his attention, he virtually encouraged their repetition by declining to show any substantial evidence of parental disapproval. After church was over the boys and their father, climbing down the office stairs, ruefully turned their steps homeward."

Guess that takes care of the "exhaustion" issue. It appears that Mr. Lincoln just chose to condone unacceptable behavior. IMO, shame on him.

[AussieMick]

To add my thoughts ... This issue of poor fatherhood skills? I'd say it only shows that Lincoln had a weakness. Perhaps a major one as a human being, in that ensuring one's offspring grow up to be decent well-behaved adults is a major responsibility of any adult.

Having said that, my respect for Lincoln is undiminished. Anybody that has brought up children knows how difficult it is. Just about every child that I've ever known, apart from my own, has been a brat. I guess I'm only half joking when I write that. (After the age of 16 they often seem to improve.) I recall saying to a teacher at a parent-teacher interview " I know that my daughter is a bit of an introvert and probably seems a bit quiet ..." The look on his face told me that this was not how she behaved in class.

Certainly Lincoln seems to have been a poor parent, but when one considers his qualities in other respects I'll give him a nine out of ten as a human being.

[David Lockmiller]

I think that Tad Lincoln should be looked upon from the reverse side. After the death of Willie, what would have been Abraham Lincoln's family life without Tad? After all, it was President Abraham Lincoln who saved democracy for the world.

[L Verge]

I didn't realize that we were judging parenting skills compared to saving democracy -- silly me...

Living in the D.C. area, I have known quite a few members of the Secret Service, uniformed police escorts, and members of the military who have had direct contact with other First Families since the Lyndon Johnson era. Trust me, they do gossip; and I've heard some very interesting stories on how various POTUS and FLOTUS folks have treated their children, how some children have behaved (one got a spanking in the back seat of the limo by POTUS), and also how rude and nasty certain prestigious parents have been to those assigned to protect them. One FLOTUS evidently detested anyone in uniform, judging by her behavior.

I still think that there is "normal" behavior for children who have been taught what is proper and "questionable" behavior for those who are allowed free reign. I don't advocate corporal punishment, but I do suggest setting guidelines and feel that Mr. Lincoln (as head of his house) failed to do so -- at least with his youngest son.

[GustD45]

As a parent Mr & Mrs. Lincoln were not the greatest I will admit to that. Laurie I don't doubt that there is a lot to glean from the secret service details of our presidents as to how they reared their children and other things.

[David Lockmiller]

(03-05-2019 09:37 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I didn't realize that we were judging parenting skills compared to saving democracy -- silly me...

Good point, Laurie. But who do you think would be the better judge of Mr. Lincoln's parenting skills in the form of results, those who lived with and observed Tad Lincoln at the time or those making an assessment over 150 years later?

Previously, I made the following post:

Eva, do you see any difference between your assessment of Tad's character and Elizabeth Keckley's assessment of Tad's character?

You wrote: "I think Tad was well aware his behavior and actions often were not those of a good (behaving) boy, and that he made "(ab)use" of his "protected status."

Elizabeth Keckley wrote: "Tad had been petted by his father, but petting could not spoil such a manly nature as his. He seemed to realize that he was the son of a President – to realize it in its loftiest and noblest sense."

Elizabeth Keckley used the nurse's "quoted words," in part, to prove her assessment of Tad's character. You used only the same nurse's "quoted words" from Elizabeth Keckley's writing to prove your assessment of Tad's character.

[L Verge]

(03-05-2019 11:18 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(03-05-2019 09:37 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I didn't realize that we were judging parenting skills compared to saving democracy -- silly me...

Good point, Laurie. But who do you think would be the better judge of Mr. Lincoln's parenting skills in the form of results, those who lived with and observed Tad Lincoln at the time or those making an assessment over 150 years later?

Previously, I made the following post:

Eva, do you see any difference between your assessment of Tad's character and Elizabeth Keckley's assessment of Tad's character?

You wrote: "I think Tad was well aware his behavior and actions often were not those of a good (behaving) boy, and that he made "(ab)use" of his "protected status."

Elizabeth Keckley wrote: "Tad had been petted by his father, but petting could not spoil such a manly nature as his. He seemed to realize that he was the son of a President – to realize it in its loftiest and noblest sense."

Elizabeth Keckley used the nurse's "quoted words," in part, to prove her assessment of Tad's character. You used only the same nurse's "quoted words" from Elizabeth Keckley's writing to prove your assessment of Tad's character.

I shared my thoughts, David, and I'm sticking with them. Personally, while Herndon had his faults, I think he was much like me and flat out said what he thought. Thank you, Roger, for sharing Herndon's thoughts on Tad because he was speaking from personal experience and saying exactly what I think 150 years later. How do you counter-attack that?

As for Elizabeth Keckly, while I admire the lady, I don't trust that her book reveals her real thoughts. First, exactly how much of Behind the Scenes did she write and how much was written by the publisher. Second, how precise would she be in her thoughts of the family when she is trying to be of some comfort to widow Lincoln? I doubt that anyone in her position would flat out say, "Folks, that kid was a brat and his parents did nothing to control him."

Don't be so star-struck with Mr. Lincoln that you close your eyes to the fact that he had human qualities (or in this case, lacked a sense of what society expected of fathers - especially in the mid-19th century).

P.S. You still have not answered someone's question as to whether or not you have children or have had experience with a variety of children and their individual traits?

[Gene C]

I'm not a child psychiatrist, but I have watched a lot of the Bob Newhart Show and Frazier.

My guess is Lincoln probably experienced both a very stern discipline style from his father and a more loving, less critical style from his mother and step mother. It appears from what we have read, he may have personally preferred the softer discipline style when dealing with Tad.

In addition, we know Mary had some health issues that contributed to her more excitable behavior. It is also possible Tad inherited these traits, and learned some others from his mother, and Lincoln recognized this and was more lenient in dealing with his behavior.
(I don't always believe what Herndon says.)

[RJNorton]

(03-06-2019 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  kicking adults' chessboards while their are playing?

I was curious about this, and here is a description I found online:

"Mrs C. C. Brown, daughter of John E. Owsley, then a resident of Springfield, but later of Chicago, told of the times when her father and Mr. Lincoln used to play chess in the latter's office. Frequently the game lasted into the time for dinner, and little Todd would come for his father. After the boy had waited as long as he felt he could for the game to be finished, he would slide up and kick the chess board to the ceiling. "It used to make my father boil,"; Mrs. Brown related." but Mr. Lincoln never showed the slightest anger. He would seize the boy and throw him up on his back, and off they would go to their dinner."

https://archive.org/stream/marytoddlinco...5_djvu.txt

[L Verge]

(03-06-2019 08:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(03-06-2019 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  kicking adults' chessboards while their are playing?

I was curious about this, and here is a description I found online:

"Mrs C. C. Brown, daughter of John E. Owsley, then a resident of Springfield, but later of Chicago, told of the times when her father and Mr. Lincoln used to play chess in the latter's office. Frequently the game lasted into the time for dinner, and little Todd would come for his father. After the boy had waited as long as he felt he could for the game to be finished, he would slide up and kick the chess board to the ceiling. "It used to make my father boil,"; Mrs. Brown related." but Mr. Lincoln never showed the slightest anger. He would seize the boy and throw him up on his back, and off they would go to their dinner."

https://archive.org/stream/marytoddlinco...5_djvu.txt

---

(03-06-2019 12:49 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(03-06-2019 08:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(03-06-2019 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  kicking adults' chessboards while their are playing?

I was curious about this, and here is a description I found online:

"Mrs C. C. Brown, daughter of John E. Owsley, then a resident of Springfield, but later of Chicago, told of the times when her father and Mr. Lincoln used to play chess in the latter's office. Frequently the game lasted into the time for dinner, and little Todd would come for his father. After the boy had waited as long as he felt he could for the game to be finished, he would slide up and kick the chess board to the ceiling. "It used to make my father boil,"; Mrs. Brown related." but Mr. Lincoln never showed the slightest anger. He would seize the boy and throw him up on his back, and off they would go to their dinner."

https://archive.org/stream/marytoddlinco...5_djvu.txt

I find it hard to believe that some of you are still thinking that this is acceptable behavior and also trying to find reasons why Lincoln was such a lenient father!

If I had to justify Lincoln's behavior (which I can't), I could only suggest that perhaps he recognized that something truly was wrong with Tad or that he knew what a terrible tantrum would follow any attempt at discipline that he just gave up.

Lincoln's biographers were certainly not going to do anything to stain the saintly mantel after 1865. And, how many talked family gossip other than to condemn Mrs. Lincoln? I'm sticking with Herndon and Mrs. Brown here.

[GustD45]

Actually Laurie there is no justification for Mr. Lincoln's lenient parenting. Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln were lax in their duties and the ones around them got pretty fed up. Neither my mother nor my father would have tolerated me kicking over a chessboard and I am the baby of my family. Now obviously I don't have a speech impediment like Thomas "Tad" but my older brother was mentally challenged and he was never coddled like that.

[L Verge]

(03-06-2019 02:01 PM)GustD45 Wrote:  Actually Laurie there is no justification for Mr. Lincoln's lenient parenting. Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln were lax in their duties and the ones around them got pretty fed up. Neither my mother nor my father would have tolerated me kicking over a chessboard and I am the baby of my family. Now obviously I don't have a speech impediment like Thomas "Tad" but my older brother was mentally challenged and he was never coddled like that.

Thank you! Both my daughter and I have had training in teaching those with special needs, and letting them get away with inappropriate behavior is not on the approved list.

I do not feel that Tad had significant special needs, but his being allowed to act out in an undisciplined manner only fostered more inappropriate behavior to the effect of modern authors and readers not knowing where the line was between his "needs" and his "wants" for attention, etc.

[David Lockmiller]

Tad offered to help the head gardener water the South Lawn with the hose to which was attached a newly invented variable nozzle. He played that the White House was on fire and, by turning the nozzle this way and that, learned how to make it sprinkle and spray, and do a sudden spurt, then pour a steady stream. While he was thus experimenting, who should burst out of the south door and come stamping down the long, curved stairway but the Secretary of War, still brandishing a paper under the nose of the President, who was following him.

Mr. Lincoln had just written a dispatch to be sent to the front forbidding a young soldier to be shot the next day, which Stanton testily insisted was demoralizing the discipline of the army. He had just descended to the lawn and turned about for a parting shot: “I tell you, Mr. President, if this thing don’t stop –“

Bzt! – a spurt through the new nozzle knocked that paper out of the Secretary’s hand and sent it fluttering down the grass, and a firm stream struck the astounded functionary full in the face, then played up and down his shuddering form. Stanton stood gurgling, gasping and strangling, thickly uttering a medley of sublimated profanity, while making frantic clutches in the direction of the grinning cause of his discomfiture.

Right here a soldier guard stationed at the White House caught the boy and took him into the White House to change his wet clothing.

Stanton, still shivering, shouted up to the President: “I’d like to put that boy in the calaboose.”

“No, Stanton,” Mr. Lincoln replied kindly, “that would do more harm than good. Can’t you see that you’re to blame for this whole business? You’ve kept that boy’s blood at the boiling point for several weeks now. He doesn’t like the way you talk to me. After you went out the other day he asked me why I didn’t take you across my knees and give you a good spanking – and because I laughed at the idea then, he has taken the matter into his own hands.

“Let me give you a bit of fatherly counsel. You know as well as I do that men are just boys of larger growth. You’re getting yourself disliked on all sides by fuming and swearing at everybody, and Tad isn’t the only person who resents some of the things you say to and about me. If you can make that boy your friend, you will be better able to win the war and save the Union.”

Edwin M. Stanton forgave Tad and even the sorry plight he was in, as he seized the hand of the Chief and said fervently: “I believe you’re right, Mr. President, I believe you’re right.”

-- Thomas F. Pendel "Thirty-Six Years in the White House"

[Gene C]

Thanks David, I have read that story before, but could never find the source.

[L Verge]

And thank you, David, for giving yet another example of evidence that Tad Lincoln was often out of control and his father did nothing to diffuse him. Rest my case.