Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Donna. I have now edited my previous post to clear up the confusion.

[Donna]

I’m sorry about any confusion caused by deleting the 19th century fashion thread. As I explained to Roger, had there been significantly more than the 5 replies, I would have left it alone, but after the replies stopped, I felt it was more appropriate to continue the continuity with the seed pearl thread, and the only way to accomplish this was to delete it and then re-post it. Fortunately, Roger re-posted the entire thread. Again, Thank You, Roger.
As far as some underlying conspiratorial angle to rid this thread of unwanted responses,.....are you serious??? Really??? I sincerely hope each and every response posted to date, along with any others that may be forthcoming, are preserved for perpetuity. To any objective, reasonable observer the evolution of this thread is very illuminating, and clearly illustrates.............well, we’ll leave that to the observer.
In response to those of you (everybody) who seem to think that being asked to provide a concise, factual, delineated argument to back up your beliefs is somehow unwarranted or akin to being asked to ‘prove a negative’, I would point out that the owner of the daguerreotype has done exactly that. He states every known scar or identifying characteristic unique to Abraham and Mary Lincoln is present on both sitters, most of which are itemized on his website. Not ONE scar or identifying characteristic foreign to either Abe or Mary is present. THAT is the very definition of incontrovertible or unassailable evidence. Which is why, once again, there has never been a serious (as in concise, factual, delineated) challenge to the dag’s authenticity. “It doesn’t look like them” simply isn’t good enough. And if they are indeed just a couple of imposters who ever so vaguely resemble Abe and Mary Lincoln as Gene alluded to, I would think that it would be a relatively simple task to rattle off what would certainly be a multitude of inconsistencies, given the distinctive identifying characteristics of Abraham Lincoln. Not to mention Mary.
So, Gene, Susan, Anita, Donna McCreary, Laurie, etc., if you think he just isn’t getting the response he’s looking for.....BINGO! Or, in millennial lingo.......DUH!
Incidentally, I would agree that the image isn’t a dead ringer for the few images that the public generally associates with Abraham Lincoln. The reason being that it’s a daguerreotype. A dag image is different than any other photographic image. Different than an ambrotype, a tintype, a carte-de-visite, albumen print, etc., and many experts in the field of photographica have argued that it is in fact the truest representation of reality ever produced. I would challenge anybody to find Abraham Lincoln in the circa 1846 - ‘48 dag of Abe currently housed in the Library of Congress. When the image was first brought to the public’s attention in McClure’s Magazine in 1896, there was severe push-back and skepticism not only by the public but also by the fledgling Lincoln community. As most of you know, it was only after Robert Lincoln repeatedly and vehemently vouched for its authenticity that it was finally accepted as the genuine article. If that dag were to surface today sans everything but the image in a gutta-percha case with no provenance whatsoever, there is zero likelihood that a single solitary soul would step forward and declare....That’s Abraham Lincoln!” Well......with the possible exception of Albert, who has an uncanny ability to ferret out dag images of mid-nineteenth century famous personages that have eluded all others. While it is true that appearance changes as one ages, 13 or 15 years does not a completely different visage make. Unless one is comparing an earlier dag image to an array of ambrotype and paper photo images.

[L Verge]

Just one response to end my attempts at providing viable comments as to why I and certainly others over the years do not believe this dag is of the Lincolns: "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see and none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear."

The fact that experts in the field, both here and in the broad Lincoln field, have refused to accept the photo as a genuine Lincoln piece over quite a long period of time, speaks clearly to the issue, in my opinion. As I wished to you and your brother(?) several weeks ago, good luck in your continuing quest to authenticate your item - and rest assured that there is no grand conspiracy to keep the world from learning of other true Lincoln photos and/or artifacts. Good historians don't work that way; they treasure new discoveries when they can be proven.

[Eva Elisabeth]

To summarize - one person sees a resemblance and thinks the photo shows Abraham and Mary Lincoln, or wants that thinking to be established. The others on this thread (as well as several experts outside) see no resemblance and for this as well as other reasons do not think the photo shows "the" very Lincolns.
I think more than sufficient arguments have been brought forth for readers to thoroughly consider.
(And obviously the "pro"-party hasn't yet made it to convince.) I don't see any evidence to come, so I think one just has to accept there are different visual perceptions, and everyone is free in his/her beliefs. The "pro" member as well as all the others. (I however do think there is not or not yet anything, neither in closeness of "resemblance" nor else, to justify to generally establish this as a Lincoln photo.) Period. Why now all this ongoing hue and cry on the one side?

---

PS: Just reminds me of a German proverb - literally translated "(s)he who cries is wrong", meaning about "methinks (s)he doth protest too much".

[Gene C]

I must confess it is quite gratifying and humbling to be mentioned and included with such a prestigious group as Susan, Anita, Donna McCreary, Laurie, and etc.

I've always dreamed of this moment. And that reminds me of a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHrqrlZYsDA

[Eva Elisabeth]

I don't know inasfar the picture (and pics of the definite Lincolns for comparison) is suitable for biometric analysis, but have you tried to seek expertise on that matter ? If possible it would add facts to the discussion.

[Donna]

Hi Roger......would you be kind enough to please explain on this forum what you meant by your statements referring to “writers of the software” and “that’s why they wrote it into the code for the forum”? Obviously you’re under no obligation to do so, but I’ve noticed that others have parroted these remarks and I’m just curious as to what the intent is. Is that a thinly veiled reference to me personally?.....or to a guy (the owner of the dag) with a 10th grade education who, according to the Lincoln community, has been the village idiot for over 20 years now but inexplicably has suddenly conquered the art of writing code for software? Please enlighten me. Thank you.

[Gene C]

I suppose you are referring to post #56,
I doubt the writers of the software used here had you personally in mind when the forum started back over five years ago.

But I could be wrong.

[Donna]

Hi Donna McCreary.......you stated on this thread in your post #15 that........”Lincoln did purchase jewelry for Mary, including the Tiffany Seed Pearl parure worn at the inaugural ball in 1861”.
You also stated in post #51.....”By now, most historians realize that Mary wore a blue, watered silk, ball gown with a bertha of d’ Alençon lace, a head dress containing a blue ostrich feather, and the seed pearl parure that had been recently purchased at Tiffany & Co. Concerning the purchase date of the Tiffany seed pearl parure...According to John Loring’s book, TIFFANY’S 150 YEARS, the set was purchased during the New York stop of the inaugural trip to Washington on February 20, 1861”.
I’m just curious if this is still your contention? That Mary did indeed wear the seed pearl jewelry to the March 4th,1861 inaugural ball? Since you, like me, seem to be fairly opinionated, I am hoping to pin SOMEBODY down on this forum with SOMETHING that resembles concise, factual, delineated. Either she did or she didn’t. I’m saying she didn’t. No way. No how. Not even close. What say you?

[RJNorton]

(04-04-2018 06:49 AM)Donna Wrote:  Hi Roger......would you be kind enough to please explain on this forum what you meant by your statements referring to “writers of the software” and “that’s why they wrote it into the code for the forum”? Obviously you’re under no obligation to do so, but I’ve noticed that others have parroted these remarks and I’m just curious as to what the intent is. Is that a thinly veiled reference to me personally?.....or to a guy (the owner of the dag) with a 10th grade education who, according to the Lincoln community, has been the village idiot for over 20 years now but inexplicably has suddenly conquered the art of writing code for software? Please enlighten me. Thank you.

Donna, I know enough HTML code to create a simple web page, but the code for this forum is way over my skill level. The MyBB software is a free download and is used by quite a few forums like this. I downloaded the MyBB software to my server in July 2012. Within the software itself, there is code that deletes an entire thread if the very first post in the thread is deleted. The MyBB software writers must have felt that the follow-ups to the initial post in a thread would be meaningless if that initial post were deleted. Absolutely nothing personal was meant, but when you deleted it, I originally thought all was gone, but fortunately I was able to find the deleted posts in Google's cache and was able to re-post what had been deleted after you deleted the initial post in the thread.

[L Verge]

(04-03-2018 07:05 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I must confess it is quite gratifying and humbling to be mentioned and included with such a prestigious group as Susan, Anita, Donna McCreary, Laurie, and etc.

I've always dreamed of this moment. And that reminds me of a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHrqrlZYsDA

Thank you, Gene, for starting off my morning by making me cry -- and I sincerely mean "thank you!" First of all, that is one of my all-time favorite songs, and Jim Nabors sang it better than anyone else. What a glorious voice (which few people remember him for...).

Secondly, Man of La Mancha is one of my favorite Broadway shows from the 1960s. For awhile, I think it became my theme song as I was young, eager, fresh out of college, teaching in a world that was beset with the Vietnam War, and watching the peaceful world of the 1950s that I had grown up in change.

I am not sure that I ever achieved my impossible dreams, but I have managed to hold my head above water in life. And, I am one of those lucky ones who managed to turn my avocation (addiction to the Lincoln assassination story) into my vocation at Surratt House.

[kerry]

One of James Edward Kelley's interviews (Styple's books) talks about photographing the Lincoln family in the White House. I wonder why the photos didn't survive. You'd think they'd have handed them out as they did others. Maybe they didn't like the results.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Donna, may I ask the following - in a post on the respective thread you wrote:
"Lincoln also purchased a diamond ring for Mary and a beautiful heart-shaped diamond necklace as gifts."

This has been posted here once before, some years ago, by Toia. I have never read elsewhere. Where does that "info" come from? Does the necklace e still exist, or a photo thereof? Since you as well as Toia found it "beautiful" I would think you actually saw it somewhere. (I wonder love to, too!) Thanks for any info!

[Donna McCreary]

(04-06-2018 04:39 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Donna, may I ask the following - in a post on the respective thread you wrote:
"Lincoln also purchased a diamond ring for Mary and a beautiful heart-shaped diamond necklace as gifts."

This has been posted here once before, some years ago, by Toia. I have never read elsewhere. Where does that "info" come from? Does the necklace e still exist, or a photo thereof? Since you as well as Toia found it "beautiful" I would think you actually saw it somewhere. (I wonder love to, too!) Thanks for any info!

The heart shaped necklace is located at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Museum in Springfield. I have no idea where the diamond ring is located, but it is visible in some of Mary's photos.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks - is it this one?
   
(I was thinking of something like this:
    )