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kerry · 01-25-2018, 06:47 PM

(01-25-2018 05:22 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(01-25-2018 11:36 AM)kerry Wrote: It surprises me how often Herndon's witnesses say, "well, as I learned in Lamon's book," -- the effect of that book on Springfield memory has not been appreciated. It may have been generally denigrated, but people in Springfield knew that Lamon and Herndon, the provider of the information, knew Lincoln very well. They seemed to discount their own memories when inconsistencies arose. Only a few endeavored to correct it.

I have not heard (read) that before.
That is enlightening, thanks for posting.

You're welcome - it is interesting. The site is down, so I can't look at who said it. It happened a lot with Herndon's lectures on Ann Rutledge - many was so grateful for the fascinating backstory, never questioning it or his psychological analysis though never having heard of it. The only thing people questioned were the assertions about Lincoln's religion. Then they overruled Lamon with their own testimony, although some of them clearly made some stuff up to protect the legacy. It is especially aggravating for me with my Mary Lincoln research because the religion controversy completely drowned out an actual key research lead -- Mary Lincoln's own draft biography of Lincoln. I wrote about it here: https://medium.com/@kerry62189/where-is-...1806faa76b When William Reid wrote his letter, that revealed the project existed. And when people tracked William Reid down later or wrote about it, they did so to prove Lincoln was a devout Christian, and never asked about his work with Mary.

Steve · 01-25-2018, 08:14 PM

(01-25-2018 06:47 PM)kerry Wrote:
(01-25-2018 05:22 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(01-25-2018 11:36 AM)kerry Wrote: It surprises me how often Herndon's witnesses say, "well, as I learned in Lamon's book," -- the effect of that book on Springfield memory has not been appreciated. It may have been generally denigrated, but people in Springfield knew that Lamon and Herndon, the provider of the information, knew Lincoln very well. They seemed to discount their own memories when inconsistencies arose. Only a few endeavored to correct it.

I have not heard (read) that before.
That is enlightening, thanks for posting.

You're welcome - it is interesting. The site is down, so I can't look at who said it. It happened a lot with Herndon's lectures on Ann Rutledge - many was so grateful for the fascinating backstory, never questioning it or his psychological analysis though never having heard of it. The only thing people questioned were the assertions about Lincoln's religion. Then they overruled Lamon with their own testimony, although some of them clearly made some stuff up to protect the legacy. It is especially aggravating for me with my Mary Lincoln research because the religion controversy completely drowned out an actual key research lead -- Mary Lincoln's own draft biography of Lincoln. I wrote about it here: https://medium.com/@kerry62189/where-is-...1806faa76b When William Reid wrote his letter, that revealed the project existed. And when people tracked William Reid down later or wrote about it, they did so to prove Lincoln was a devout Christian, and never asked about his work with Mary.

I've always been bothered by the way Herndon presented the Ann Rutledge story. Not one of the Rutledges interviewed by Herndon could gave a specific eyewitness memory of an event/instance of Lincoln courting Ann. But yet they're all sure they were courting/engaged. Isn't that a little weird, especially if it's supposedly the only evidence we have of the story?

Your point about the storytellers, like Herndon, (subtly) altering their own sources memories through their own presentation is very interesting.

kerry · 01-26-2018, 12:03 AM

(01-25-2018 08:14 PM)Steve Wrote:
(01-25-2018 06:47 PM)kerry Wrote:
(01-25-2018 05:22 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(01-25-2018 11:36 AM)kerry Wrote: It surprises me how often Herndon's witnesses say, "well, as I learned in Lamon's book," -- the effect of that book on Springfield memory has not been appreciated. It may have been generally denigrated, but people in Springfield knew that Lamon and Herndon, the provider of the information, knew Lincoln very well. They seemed to discount their own memories when inconsistencies arose. Only a few endeavored to correct it.

I have not heard (read) that before.
That is enlightening, thanks for posting.

You're welcome - it is interesting. The site is down, so I can't look at who said it. It happened a lot with Herndon's lectures on Ann Rutledge - many was so grateful for the fascinating backstory, never questioning it or his psychological analysis though never having heard of it. The only thing people questioned were the assertions about Lincoln's religion. Then they overruled Lamon with their own testimony, although some of them clearly made some stuff up to protect the legacy. It is especially aggravating for me with my Mary Lincoln research because the religion controversy completely drowned out an actual key research lead -- Mary Lincoln's own draft biography of Lincoln. I wrote about it here: https://medium.com/@kerry62189/where-is-...1806faa76b When William Reid wrote his letter, that revealed the project existed. And when people tracked William Reid down later or wrote about it, they did so to prove Lincoln was a devout Christian, and never asked about his work with Mary.

I've always been bothered by the way Herndon presented the Ann Rutledge story. Not one of the Rutledges interviewed by Herndon could gave a specific eyewitness memory of an event/instance of Lincoln courting Ann. But yet they're all sure they were courting/engaged. Isn't that a little weird, especially if it's supposedly the only evidence we have of the story?

Your point about the storytellers, like Herndon, (subtly) altering their own sources memories through their own presentation is very interesting.

Yes, while I know there is much controversy over this, my opinion is the Ann Rutledge evidence is weak. They probably hung out and courted a bit, but it's clear the witnesses had very little idea what actually happened. I think Lincoln had a breakdown that they used the death of Ann to explain, because depressive episodes do not typically have one big cause and people who don't experience it can't understand that. Lincoln's Melancholy explained it well. But no one has any worthwhile details -- they're just recirculating the same gossip, often incorrectly. One family member, who admits she was young and heard it secondhand, gave some colorful stories, then announced Ann died an old maid in another state. They were clueless. The more I look at the evidence, the more Herndon's approach confuses me. I don't doubt his sincerity, but his conclusions were just odd. He did seem to believe that Lincoln's heart was "in Ann's grave," and therefore any actual questions about Lincoln's accordingly non-loving family life never occurred to him. He missed so much of recording actual Springfield events regarding the family that would have been enlightening about Lincoln. And he was always saying he'd tell the truth about the Lincoln family and illuminate them some day, and wrote an article that got nixed, and then removed all references to such things from his papers. What was going on? The point I keep coming back to is that Springfield early on got a set of "approved facts" and stuck with it, and so even when they seem credible, they are often just repeating what they've heard. You really have to be wary of the sources. Then there are ones with just bad memories - complaining about the Lincolns not entertaining or inviting them when Browning's diary mentions a bunch of parties, and a David Davis letter has him turning down an invite. The ones who knew better generally didn't sell out their stories, and it must be remembered that Elizabeth Edwards herself is responsible for the two weddings story usually held against Herndon. It's all very confusing and probably can never be figured out now.

Eva Elisabeth · 01-26-2018, 04:47 AM

Re.:"In the Douglas debates, Douglas used Matheny's statement about something against Lincoln. Lincoln said Matheny told a story about which he actually knew nothing, but did not refute Douglas' claim that he had been close friends with Matheny for 20 years."

Kerry, Lincoln's entire statement on that is on the I posted. The site also sheds some light on the timeline of the friendship. (Donald in his" We are Lincoln Men" didn't include Matheny btw.)

I see no controversy as for Douglas' claim going unrefuted, "close friends" is a matter of perception first of all, and Lincoln's definition/perception might have been different than Douglas. Fact is the had known each other for that long and their ways often crossed. However, I'd think "close friends" (from Lincoln's side) rather as for the frequency of encountering/cooperating over the the years and in the "practical" than "spiritual" sense, i.e. they were rather "male buddies" due to work. I doubt that if profession and politics had not frequently brought them together, they would have "seeked" each other that much.

Matheny also "maintained that Mr. Lincoln told him that he was in love with [Mary Todd’s niece] Matilda Edwards rather than Mary Todd."

It's striking that Lincoln didn't really speak on him when he was supposed to speak to his honor

That I have long esteemed Mr. Matheny as a man and a friend, is known to you all. But that I should mete out to you the full measure of his worth, I shall not now attempt to do. Besides, much of this has already been beautifully and graphically done by my friend Mr. Herndon. Mr. Chairman, allow me in conclusion to say that I fully concur in all that has been said and done on this occasion.”

RJNorton · 01-26-2018, 05:07 AM

(01-26-2018 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Matheny also "maintained that Mr. Lincoln told him that he was in love with [Mary Todd’s niece] Matilda Edwards rather than Mary Todd."

Very interesting, Eva. I have also read that Lincoln's real love (at that time) was Matilda Edwards. I think one or two others of the Springfield "coterie" may have claimed this (not 100% sure, though), but offhand I cannot remember the names.

(01-21-2018 11:23 AM)kerry Wrote: Judge Matheney told Weik much, but made him promise to keep it to himself until both he and Mary had died. “The marriage was originally set for a day in the winter of 1840-1841, probably New Year’s Day, and Judge Matheney always instead that he had been asked to serve as groan then; but Lincoln, for reasons unnecessary to detail here, having failed to materialize at the appoint time, an estrangement naturally followed and he was no longer enshrined in the affections of Miss Todd or person grata at the Edwards home . ..

Kerry, I do not have access to this information of which you speak, but it's interesting in that it seems to me to be more evidence that there really was a "first" wedding planned (which I previously have doubted). I am most curious about one thing. If Matheny were to be a groom in this "first" wedding, did he tell Weik who was to be the best man?

(My guess would be Speed as I think he had not yet moved to Kentucky at that point in time - January 1, 1841. I believe Speed told Herndon that he remained in Springfield until January 1842.)

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 01:14 PM by kerry.)

A lot of people said Lincoln loved Mathilda, so there was definitely something to that. I highly doubt he *loved* her, but he probably had an infatuation that added to his doubt about the marriage. For all the drama about that, the later letters between him and Mary joking about him seeing Mathilda would indicate to me that he wasn't forever pining for her.

Researching Herndon has made me think he gets criticism for the wrong things and not enough criticism in others. The two weddings thing that is used to discredit him isn't all that discrediting, in my opinion. I don't know what happened, but Elizabeth said that to both Herndon and Weik many years apart. She was upset with Lincoln at the time of the Herndon interview, as much of Springfield was for not getting what they wanted in terms of positions etc. There was a lot of jealousy that also colors everything, some of it just the natural contrarianism that happens when someone you know well is turned into some sort of saint. Maybe she did it to aggravate Mary, but I doubt that. I think it is possible there was a quiet affair involving a few people, perhaps an engagement or New Year's party party, that Lincoln did not appear at. One of Mary's cousins said something similar. On the other hand, I think all the credit Herndon gets for being after the truth is missing when it comes to the Lincoln family. His conclusions go way too far; even taking his personality into account, he was reckless and malicious in his statements. He had his own narrative and was committed to it. He does give Mary a lot of compliments at times, and maybe he did have writings prepared to explain things, but he completely missed opportunities to gain an understanding. He also completely dismissed Robert as a person and doesn't seem to have thought there could be any insights in Lincoln's approach to fatherhood; instead, he describes him as a "tool and slave" to his children. Which is strange because Herndon seems to have been a committed family man, but it seems like few people looked to parenting for insights at the time; children were to be seen and not heard. Yet no one followed that maxim in Washington - everyone talked about how Lincoln's interactions with his family illuminated his character, which it clearly did.

Matheny didn't seem to remember who was at the wedding - no comment about the first best man, but I assume it would have been Speed. I find Speed's lack of comments on the marriage interesting. He says it was done for honor and implies Lincoln would have been less successful with a happier home, but never indicates any comment by Lincoln as to what his marriage was like, after providing the letters with all their agonizing.

Oh, and William Jayne claimed that he didn't know where the two weddings story came from, but that Herndon had told him he heard the words from Mary herself that there was. Maybe he misunderstood and Herndon said Mary's sister. Caroline Heally Dall and Weik both claim to have seen pretty spirited correspondence between Mary and Herndon after Lincoln's death. He got rid of it for one reason or another.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 05:28 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Kerry, there's a lot of thoughts to comment on this post, I'm afraid I lack the time right now. However, did you read Donald's Herndon bio or his "We Are Lincoln Men"? I highly recommend both, and I think especially the Herndon might "suggest" some valid possible answers to all your questions and on Herndons's mindset, personality and resulting motives.

PS: We discussed the books here:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ght=Donald

Anita · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 05:56 PM by Anita.)

(01-26-2018 05:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-26-2018 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Matheny also "maintained that Mr. Lincoln told him that he was in love with [Mary Todd’s niece] Matilda Edwards rather than Mary Todd."

Very interesting, Eva. I have also read that Lincoln's real love (at that time) was Matilda Edwards. I think one or two others of the Springfield "coterie" may have claimed this (not 100% sure, though), but offhand I cannot remember the names.

I've been following the discussion here and in researching came across a book by Douglas L Wilson, "Lincoln Before Washington: New Perspectives on the Illinois Years." Chapter 6. Abraham Lincoln and "That Fatal First Of January."

It's 33 pages of detailed documented discussion with emphasis on Matilda (much new to me) woven together to provide those "new perspectives" I found well worth considering.

I don't have the book but there is a very lengthy amount of the chapter as a Google books preview but with key pages missing of course! Does anyone own this book? Other chapters look interesting as well. Here's the link.

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y9slj4v7

RJNorton · 01-26-2018, 06:47 PM

Thanks, Anita. I have that book, but this information is also in the link you mentioned: Wilson writes that four people --> Joshua Speed, Ninian Edwards, Elizabeth Edwards, and James Matheny all "implicate Lincoln's feelings for Matilda Edwards as a prime factor in the breaking of the engagement."

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 07:10 PM by kerry.)

(01-26-2018 05:56 PM)Anita Wrote:
(01-26-2018 05:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-26-2018 04:47 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Matheny also "maintained that Mr. Lincoln told him that he was in love with [Mary Todd’s niece] Matilda Edwards rather than Mary Todd."

Very interesting, Eva. I have also read that Lincoln's real love (at that time) was Matilda Edwards. I think one or two others of the Springfield "coterie" may have claimed this (not 100% sure, though), but offhand I cannot remember the names.

I've been following the discussion here and in researching came across a book by Douglas L Wilson, "Lincoln Before Washington: New Perspectives on the Illinois Years." Chapter 6. Abraham Lincoln and "That Fatal First Of January."

It's 33 pages of detailed documented discussion with emphasis on Matilda (much new to me) woven together to provide those "new perspectives" I found well worth considering.

I don't have the book but there is a very lengthy amount of the chapter as a Google books preview but with key pages missing of course! Does anyone own this book? Other chapters look interesting as well. Here's the link.

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y9slj4v7

I own it. It's a very good breakdown of the whole thing but extremely detailed and complicated. And the accounts it brings together are all so contradictory -- when I read them, all I can think is we are missing some piece of the picture. In later years, everyone describes Lincoln as breaking up with Mary. But several letters written at the time all indicate Mary broke up with Lincoln. They all felt sorry for him, which doesn't go with the failing to show up for a wedding story. I think maybe no one had the real story. Wilson concludes both Lincoln and Speed pursued Mathilda at the same time and were rejected by her, leading to simultaneous breakdowns and Speed's exit from Springfield. He suggests from the timeline that the fatal first refers to Speed's selling his store, which in fact did occur on that date. But Lincoln's sentence "I should have been happy since the fatal first but for the fact that there is one who is still unhappy" doesn't make sense to me in that context. Why should he have been happy once Speed sold the store, meaning he lost his home and best friend? If he was angry with Speed about Mathilda and relieved to have him gone, he wouldn't have been writing him about his intimate life. But he then suggests it was a reference to Speed turning down Sarah Rickard, and concludes no one can tell what it refers to. His other main point is that Mathilda's influence must be acknowledged; everyone mentions it. Again, the later correspondence where he joked with Mary about seeing her and wanting to see her, knowing Mary's jealousy, would indicate that he was not madly in love with her for the rest of his life, and that she probably wasn't the real issue, but something he seized on his doubt and anxiety.

ETA: The accounts suggest what happened was Lincoln went to Mary and confessed his doubts etc. but then they kissed and left it undecided. Then, shortly afterward, Mary accused him of being in love with Mathilda, they had a fight, and Mary released him. But she left the question an open one. Perhaps she gave him a conditional release like "Go try to get Mathilda, good luck getting her to take you," and after a certain period of time if he hadn't found someone else they would be engaged again. It's interesting that her letters from this time period do not contain anger and even mention Mathilda nicely. Maybe they'd rushed into the whole thing too quickly and had been close to engaged but not quite, and decided to just back off, so the emotions weren't so intense but it looked like a big drama to outsiders. Or maybe Mary just saw that Lincoln was struggling and blaming her for it. There's that line from Elizabeth that he told her he hated her because he was insane. That is certainly an extreme thing to say if you are ending the relationship because you like someone else.

RJNorton · 01-27-2018, 05:03 AM

(01-26-2018 06:57 PM)kerry Wrote: Wilson concludes both Lincoln and Speed pursued Mathilda at the same time and were rejected by her

I cannot remember where I read it, but one author wrote something like half the total young men in all of Springfield were pursuing her (or had dreams of doing so)!

L Verge · 01-27-2018, 11:17 AM

Why cannot I envision young Mary Todd being sweet and docile if told that her fiance was interested in another woman?

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 07:25 PM by Gene C.)

From what I understand, Mary and Mathilda were good friends. She probably knew Mathilda and Abraham well enough to know that a romantic relationship between the two was not going to happen.

Regarding Mary & Abraham, in his letter to Mary Owens, he mentioned he did not have the financial means to provide some of the nicer material things in life and she would probably be disappointed if she married him. I'm sure he felt the same about that with Mary Todd, especially with her background and education. She had her share of gentleman callers too. One big attribute to her credit, she was able to look beyond his physical appearance and background to see his true character, when many others didn't.

I think Lincoln was infatuated with Mercy, but in love with Mary.

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 01:29 PM by kerry.)

Yeah, it's clear that Mathilda was a very attractive, fascinating woman. No doubt Lincoln and many others fantasized about her. From all the accounts, I have little doubt Lincoln expressed his interest to his friends and Mary. But I think it was likely in part self-sabotage; an excuse to get out of something he wasn't ready for and was confused about. It would not surprise me at all if Mary told him to go for it, knowing he either wouldn't have the nerve or Mathilda would reject him. It was a crush that wasn't going anywhere. Mathilda rejected them all for a rich old man -- it doesn't seem like she would have valued what Lincoln had to offer. Mary is often accused of being snobby, but I feel like that is the wrong word. Aristocratic, yes, but a snobby person doesn't marry Abraham Lincoln. She clearly didn't think he was actually beneath her, even if his habits grated on her. And for all the talk about proud Todd ancestry, she didn't seem to care all that much about antecedents. She was probably one of the only women around like that.

From the book, there is this letter, which isn't often discussed. I'll type up a few of the other excerpts when I get a chance. Jane D. Bell was a Springfield woman.

Jane D. Bell to Ann Bell January 27, 1841:

"Miss Todd is flourishing largely. She has a great many Beaus. You ask me how she and Mr. Lincoln are getting along. Poor fellow, he is in a rather bad way. Just at present though he is on the mend now as he was out on Monday for the first time for a month dying with love they say. The Doctors say he came within an inch of being a perfect lunatic for life...It seems he had addressed Mary Todd and she accepted him and they had been engaged some time when a Miss Edwards of Alton came here, and he fell desperately in love with her and found he was not so much attached to Mary as he thought...Lincoln could never bear to leave Miss Edward's side in company. Some of his friends thought he was acting very wrong and very imprudently and told him so and he went crazy." This one is interesting because if Lincoln was being so obvious about it, it is interesting that Mary stood for it.

I also feel that romantic notions at the time complicate this story. They really sold the you have one true love thing, and it was as if once you were engaged you should never be attracted to any woman again. Maybe Lincoln really took that to heart. Herndon certainly did with his Ann Rutledge theory. So many people write as though they never thought twice about their spouse, which is interesting given how young they got married and how little interaction they had before doing so.

Susan Higginbotham · 01-27-2018, 03:44 PM

(01-27-2018 01:27 PM)kerry Wrote: Yeah, it's clear that Mathilda was a very attractive, fascinating woman. No doubt Lincoln and many others fantasized about her. From all the accounts, I have little doubt Lincoln expressed his interest to his friends and Mary. But I think it was likely in part self-sabotage; an excuse to get out of something he wasn't ready for and was confused about. It would not surprise me at all if Mary told him to go for it, knowing he either wouldn't have the nerve or Mathilda would reject him. It was a crush that wasn't going anywhere. Mathilda rejected them all for a rich old man -- it doesn't seem like she would have valued what Lincoln had to offer. Mary is often accused of being snobby, but I feel like that is the wrong word. Aristocratic, yes, but a snobby person doesn't marry Abraham Lincoln. She clearly didn't think he was actually beneath her, even if his habits grated on her. And for all the talk about proud Todd ancestry, she didn't seem to care all that much about antecedents. She was probably one of the only women around like that.

Strong was actually only 35 when he married Matilda in 1844. I think someone (Elizabeth Edwards?) referred to him as having a lot of horses and gold, but I haven't found anything confirming him as being rich. He was an attorney by profession.

I have transcripts of some of Matilda's family letters. Matilda makes several coy references to Strong (and at one point was mistaken for his newlywed wife when he was serving as her escort), so perhaps she was already considering him as a husband before she arrived in Springfield and simply wasn't interested in the Springfield admirers. (Annoyingly, she doesn't mention Lincoln in any of her letters.)