Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals

[Rob Wick]

Tarbell never actually wrote about Diller per se, but she fictionalized him as Billy Brown for the He Knew Lincoln series. In her Allegheny College papers are two notes from her interviews. One is 17 pages while the other is only a single page. The single page is the one in which Mary is mentioned.

https://dspace.allegheny.edu/handle/10456/29718

https://dspace.allegheny.edu/handle/10456/26744

Every time I come up with a question that I can't find an answer for, I wonder if it was kept in the files that were trashed. Frustrating is right!

Best
Rob

[kerry]

(01-21-2018 06:43 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Tarbell never actually wrote about Diller per se, but she fictionalized him as Billy Brown for the He Knew Lincoln series. In her Allegheny College papers are two notes from her interviews. One is 17 pages while the other is only a single page. The single page is the one in which Mary is mentioned.

https://dspace.allegheny.edu/handle/10456/29718

https://dspace.allegheny.edu/handle/10456/26744

Every time I come up with a question that I can't find an answer for, I wonder if it was kept in the files that were trashed. Frustrating is right!

Best
Rob

Thanks! Yeah, imagining all the valuable stuff tossed aside is so aggravating.

I have read that before but didn't get the Billy Brown connection - what makes me laugh is the "appealing to me" part. I wonder if she agreed.

Diller or his wife tells the story of Tad flipping the chessboard - they claim the other player jumped up and freaked out. Judge Treat, the other player, told Weik he said nothing in response. He said that in 1883; the story made the national newspaper rounds in 1897. That's one of the stories that I'm talking about. Diller is a person who knew the Lincolns and is a credible source, but as to that particular incident he's just repeating the same gossip everyone knows, because it's a funny story, and repeating it incorrectly. Stuff that looks like good information on first glance amounts to nothing. It's like there were only 5 stories in Springfield about the Lincoln family. It's weird because presumably Lincoln spent more time with family before he went to the White House, but I guess with Tad tagging along, there were many more stories to share from that period.

[Anita]

Thank you Kerry and Rob for a great discussion with meaty substance. Much appreciated.

[RJNorton]

(01-21-2018 11:23 AM)kerry Wrote:  Matheny has 40 people there - I think Lizzie Grimsley or one of the others names like 5. Sometimes I wonder if they eloped and never had a wedding and people just wrote themselves into the story. Maybe there was a botched elopement before, and that was the first wedding.

I have read the following story that describes an incident during the Lincolns' wedding. Is it true or is the story apocryphal?

"Standing behind Abraham during the ceremony was Judge Thomas C. Browne of the Illinois Supreme Court. Browne was a blunt man not accustomed to weddings. As Abraham was putting the wedding ring on Mary's hand and repeating the words, "With this ring I thee endow with all my goods, chattels, lands, and tenements," Browne impatiently blurted out, "God Almighty, Lincoln, the statute fixes all that." After a brief delay following Browne's interruption, the ceremony was completed as rain poured outside."

[Eva Elisabeth]

Roger, while I am familiar with the "story" I cannot recall the o-source (when and where it was told/appeared the first time by whom).
It's a nice story and would match Lincoln, I just am amazed the judge happened to be there as the guests were invited quite short-term.

This is what Eugenia Jones Hunt recalled being told by Mary's sister, Frances Todd Wallace, in the late 'sixties about the Lincolns' wedding:
"Mr. Lincoln had known my sister Mary over three years, when he called to see her the night before their marriage. In his conversation with Mary, he referred to his lack of means, his ambitions, and his love for her. 'I now suggest and insist upon our marriage at once. We will live at the Globe Tavern for the present. Now we must go, very quietly without fuss and feathers, at ten o'clock tomorrow morning, before the magistrate, and ask him to marry us.'
The next morning at the breakfast table, Mary told our sister, Lizzie, and Mr. Edwards that she and Mr. Lincoln had decided to be married at ten o'clock that morning, very quietly by the magistrate. Our aristocratic sister, with an outburst, gave Mary a good scolding. 'Do not forget that you are a Todd. But, Mary, if you insist on being married today, we will make merry, and have the wedding here this evening. I will not permit you to be married out of my house. Mr. Lincoln should ask the Reverend Dr. Dresser to officiate at the ceremony.' Mr. Edwards said: 'Mary, I agree with you - Mr. Lincoln is talented and will be an influential man, a leader among men. And now, ask all of your friends to be present at your wedding.'
Be assured, Eugenia, it was a hurly-burly day. How we hustled! I had a whole boiled ham which I took over for the wedding supper, and made the bride's and groom's cake. It was a very pretty and gay wedding. The ladies were in lovely evening gowns. Sister Mary was handsome in her beautiful bridal dress of white satin, with her pearl necklace, earrings, and brooch. Miss Lina Lamb and Julia Jayne were Mary's bridesmaids. After the ceremony, congratulations, and the wedding supper, we danced until midnight in those spacious parlors of the Ninian Edwards home."
(Eugenia Jones Hunt: “My Personal Recollections of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln”, The Abraham Lincoln Quarterly, March 1945, p. 236-237.)

Not sure how many Abraham Lincoln made to invite. (Girls are usually faster at social gatherings.)

[Eva Elisabeth]

PS - re.:"while I am familiar with the "story" I cannot recall the o-source (when and where it was told/appeared the first time by whom)" - I meant to ask, does anyone know? (I hope I am allowed to ask, no offense intended to anyone. Just would like to know. Thanks.)

[kerry]

Matheny told it to Weik: https://books.google.com/books?id=s2gilc...ny&f=false

He first told it to F.F. Browne, who published it in 1886: http://lincoln-live.lib.niu.edu/islandor...ln%3A36939

I've noticed that there is a wide variety in the number of alleged guests in each account. One says no more than 40, another makes it sound like there were 5. In one of Mary's letters, I think she says that she *thinks* Dr. Henry attended her wedding. Why did everyone have such trouble remembering?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks, Kerry! Yes, my thinking. 40 seems a lot to me, short time. Do you remember when about Mary wrote that?
The why is most likely because no one (I think) reported it prior to presidency and time expands memory.

[AussieMick]

"Miss Lina Lamb and Julia Jayne were Mary's bridesmaids."
I read somewhere there were 3 bridesmaids Julia Jayne, Anna Rodney , Elizabeth Todd (but the book 'Mary Lincoln: Southern girl, Northern Woman' mentions only the first 2) ... ah-ha now I recall where I read it ... here

[RJNorton]

It seems a little strange to me that Matheny didn't mention the Browne incident until the mid-1880s. Herndon interviewed Matheny in 1866, and the wedding was discussed but zero mention of Browne's comment.

Many sources say Lincoln chose Matheny as his best man because he was a "close friend." To me, this is somewhat of a strange choice. As far as I know, the only time Matheny really enters the Lincoln saga in a major way is November 4, 1842. Much is written about the Lincoln/Speed friendship, but IMO not a lot about Lincoln/Matheny. Matheny apparently wasn't asked to be best man until the day of the wedding. (IMO, Dr. Temple's theory is possible...that Mary and Abraham feared Mary was pregnant, and this led to the rushed wedding.)

Can anyone give some examples of the "close" friendship between Lincoln and Matheny other than the wedding?

[kerry]

(01-25-2018 05:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  It seems a little strange to me that Matheny didn't mention the Browne incident until the mid-1880s. Herndon interviewed Matheny in 1866, and the wedding was discussed but zero mention of Browne's comment.

Many sources say Lincoln chose Matheny as his best man because he was a "close friend." To me, this is somewhat of a strange choice. As far as I know, the only time Matheny really enters the Lincoln saga in a major way is November 4, 1842. Much is written about the Lincoln/Speed friendship, but IMO not a lot about Lincoln/Matheny. Matheny apparently wasn't asked to be best man until the day of the wedding. (IMO, Dr. Temple's theory is possible...that Mary and Abraham feared Mary was pregnant, and this led to the rushed wedding.)

Can anyone give some examples of the "close" friendship between Lincoln and Matheny other than the wedding?

When I was looking for the source, I reread a lot of Herndon's interviews. Several times people name Matheny as the best person to analyze Lincoln or write a biography. They say he's the only one besides Herndon and Speed who could attempt it. So they were perceived as close, especially when younger. But then someone, I think Whitney, comments that Matheny keeps telling everyone Lincoln had no melancholy, and everyone thinks that is weird. Matheny mentions they discussed religious beliefs a lot when younger, so it seems like for a time Lincoln was very close with him.

Herndon says of Matheny, "he knew Lincoln as well as I did I think." Herndon also has an interview in which Matheny says Lincoln was very melancholy as he aged. So I don't know why he was telling others otherwise.

He says they were friends 1834-1860. "Matheny further Says — as to Lincolns Religion — that when Lincoln first Came to Springfield in 1837 — Matheny being clerk — and Lincoln's office in the same building and Lincoln & Jim being friends"

[Eva Elisabeth]

He was the one who claimed Lincoln stated he were driven into marriage etc.
Here's a lot more about him and Abraham Lincoln, and more "stories":
http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/the-b...s-matheny/

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Kerry and Eva. I guess Matheny was closer to Lincoln than I previously thought.

Am I correct, however, that he is the sole source of the "Browne interruption" story? Did anyone else who was present at the wedding say that Browne impatiently blurted out an interruption during the ceremony?

Katherine Helm talks about the wedding in her book but says nothing about Browne.

[kerry]

I think he is the sole source, but I'm not positive. I wonder if a close reading of the Trumbull papers would reveal any discussion of it by Julia Trumbull when these discussions about the wedding were going on.

William Jayne wrote: "Butler Hon Wm Butler — Secry of the Treasurer of this State — who clothed and boarded Lincoln for years — paid his debts — L's — debts & obligations, because L would not give him Butler in 1848 the land office swore he would be revenged on Lincoln. Butler pretended however to be L's friend. He was for Trumbull — got into Lincolns good graces — in Lincolns camp — heard all and revealed to Trumbull & his camp. Judd & Palmer in the Legislature heard all and Stuck to Trumbull, Knowing what L's plans were &c. Trumbull was Elected — they were good friends — had no fuss — no words or misunderstanding — Matheny to the Contrary notwithstanding — his whole story was a lie —"

So he's questioning Matheny's credibility. I can't find what Matheny's story was. But Herndon also wrote on something "This is Matheny's honest opinion and no man is superior to Matheny's judgments &c of human nature — actions & motives"

I'm not sure if this link will work:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YIO9BA...ln&f=false

In the Douglas debates, Douglas used Matheny's statement about something against Lincoln. Lincoln said Matheny told a story about which he actually knew nothing, but did not refute Douglas' claim that he had been close friends with Matheny for 20 years. Maybe Matheny had a habit of doing that. In general, he looks like a pretty solid witness, but it's also clear even credible witnesses got their memories fogged up or repeated gossip as fact. Some people are natural exaggerators. It surprises me how often Herndon's witnesses say, "well, as I learned in Lamon's book," -- the effect of that book on Springfield memory has not been appreciated. It may have been generally denigrated, but people in Springfield knew that Lamon and Herndon, the provider of the information, knew Lincoln very well. They seemed to discount their own memories when inconsistencies arose. Only a few endeavored to correct it.

[Gene C]

(01-25-2018 11:36 AM)kerry Wrote:  It surprises me how often Herndon's witnesses say, "well, as I learned in Lamon's book," -- the effect of that book on Springfield memory has not been appreciated. It may have been generally denigrated, but people in Springfield knew that Lamon and Herndon, the provider of the information, knew Lincoln very well. They seemed to discount their own memories when inconsistencies arose. Only a few endeavored to correct it.

I have not heard (read) that before.
That is enlightening, thanks for posting.