Removal of Confederate Monuments

[Gene C]

Unlock the lessons of the past and you'll find you hold the key to the future.

[L Verge]

(07-03-2017 01:22 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Unlock the lessons of the past and you'll find you hold the key to the future.

Great quote, Gene. Do you know who said it?

[Gene C]

(07-03-2017 06:07 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Great quote, Gene. Do you know who said it?

No idea.

[Gencor]

(05-21-2017 04:18 PM)L Verge Wrote:  This whole thing is totally ridiculous, and I say that not to "save the monuments" (even though I want them preserved where they have stood for so many years), but to consider the harm that this p.c. movement by a few is inflicting on the nation.

I see great strides that have been made in race relations in my area just since the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s. To me, this silliness has nothing to do with the important issues of that era. This is a radical movement by many folks who have never experienced the problems of their forefathers, both black and white - and we won't even mention the American Indians.

I see a huge wedge being driven between the races once again that will set us back another fifty years or so. I heard a black minister say years ago that the white man will only stand for all these demands and messing with his heritage just so long. He asked if the black man was ready for the retaliation that was to come. Frankly, I'm afraid of that retaliation, no matter where it starts.

I don't think that either side realizes that this might be driven by outside forces that are determined to bring down our democracy no matter what. I hope I haven't painted a bull's eye on my forehead by saying this, but be careful of what you wish for when you make all your demands (or when you cave in to others' demands).

I agree, Laurie. Down here we all know that Mitch wants to run for State Senate and he is looking for votes. I think that this was the most ridiculous move he could have ever made. We can't erase our history, no matter how some writers try to do that today. With all of the talk about our very core democracy being under attack now, as divided as we have become, I am afraid for our democracy and how little politicians seem to care to save it.

[Gene C]

It seems this is a nationwide movement and it's come to my home town. People outside of my community are trying to get Confederate monuments removed. It starts here with a petition. I suppose the next step is to bring in outsiders and stir up racial unrest. If you don't agree with them, you are a bigot and prejudice.

The Removal and Replacement of Confederate Monuments in Paducah
https://www.change.org/p/the-removal-of-...paducah-ky

Most of the comments are from people outside of our community.

[Lincoln Wonk]

(04-24-2017 06:42 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Two news articles regarding the removal of four monuments in New Orleans.

Interesting to note how the two different articles emphasize different points in their reporting.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-...ls-n750036

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/04/24/new...ments.html

This is what happens when politics, history, and changes in society collide.

It will probably happen again, so is there a better way to handle this issue, or was this the best solution?

Gene, Thanks for posting. It's also happening in Los Angeles. A beautiful monument to the war dead was taken away for its own safety: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html

[Gene C]

Here is an update regarding the removal of a local statue to a Confederate General.
The article is from the West KY Star, an internet news and community information site owned & operated by the owners of several local radio stations.

http://westkentuckystar.com/News/Local-R...tures.aspx

I'm not sure how long the specific link will be available, basically the article states the online petitions are running over 3 to1 in favor of leaving the monuments where they are. Since there is more than one petition to keep the statues where they are, I am making an assumption there are crossover votes or the same people have signed both petitions, so my numbers are adjusted for that, otherwise it would be over 5 to in favor of leaving them where they are. The take them down petition had a head start in getting online signatures by a couple of days.

[Gene C]

This has in some way become a bit more of a personal issue to me than I originally thought it might. I have been corresponding with a friend who sees this issue differently than I do. We have agreed to disagree and be respectful of each others opinion.

If I should be called upon to help fight for my country,
and I don't support Abortions, which are legal
and I don't support Gay Marriage, which is legal
am I supporting those issues because I fight for my country?
Maybe there are other issues I feel are more important to me and worth protecting and fighting for.

In a time of war lets not ignore the fact that I might be drafted, or shot if I deserted.
I might be fighting because my friends, family and community leaders are fighting. It's something I am expected to do.
Lets not forget I might be fighting to protect my family from the atrocities we have heard about and know occurred by both sides to the civilian population.

Just so you know, my father served in the military for 23 years and was a pilot whose plane was shot down. Injured, he was shot and almost killed while surrendering to a German soldier and was also a POW in Germany during WWII for over two years. He was the only member of his crew that survived the war. This was a time when the casualty rate for bomber crews was higher than for the infantry. He had been married for less than a year when he experienced this.

I have seem him confronted and asked how he felt about dropping bombs and murdering defenseless women and children during the war. He didn't drop his head or lower his eyes. He wasn't going to let this person's prejudice against the military affect him.

I would erect a monument to his memory in a minute. And I wouldn't really care what the political or social views of the VFW or members of the 8th Air Force Group were if they erected a memorial in his memory.
So my perspective on monuments and memorials is slightly different.

And I imagine the family of southern veterans of the Civil War felt the same, with no racist intent.

There are no perfect countries, very few perfect causes.
We don't pick where we are born, seldom which country we want to fight for.
Most just fought for their communities, their homes, and mainly their families. Nothing more, because nothing more was needed.

there were southern families that never knew what happened to their brothers, sons and husbands. They just never came home.
So to remove monuments erected to the common soldier's sacrifice, to their determination to protect their families and friends, the hardships they endured what ever the cost and put a racist reason behind it, in my opinion, is a great dishonor to these men and their families.

[L Verge]

Beautifully expressed, Gene. Thank you.

[Dennis Urban]

How can we, by today's standards and political correctness, properly judge what was in the hearts and minds of the groups and individuals who erected those Confederate monuments 80-125 years ago. Most did not leave written reasons for doing so. I choose to believe they were commemorating history rather than a lifestyle or political belief. Their motives went unquestioned for decades until just recent years when groups with particular agendas decided to interpret those minds and feelings of so many years ago. History cannot be changed. It is what it is. Let's leave the interpretations aside and teach the history without bias and preconceived notions.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(08-22-2017 10:30 AM)Gene C Wrote:  This has in some way become a bit more of a personal issue to me than I originally thought it might. I have been corresponding with a friend who sees this issue differently than I do. We have agreed to disagree and be respectful of each others opinion.

If I should be called upon to help fight for my country,
and I don't support Abortions, which are legal
and I don't support Gay Marriage, which is legal
am I supporting those issues because I fight for my country?
Maybe there are other issues I feel are more important to me and worth protecting and fighting for.

In a time of war lets not ignore the fact that I might be drafted, or shot if I deserted.
I might be fighting because my friends, family and community leaders are fighting. It's something I am expected to do.
Lets not forget I might be fighting to protect my family from the atrocities we have heard about and know occurred by both sides to the civilian population.

Just so you know, my father served in the military for 23 years and was a pilot whose plane was shot down. Injured, he was shot and almost killed while surrendering to a German soldier and was also a POW in Germany during WWII for over two years. He was the only member of his crew that survived the war. This was a time when the casualty rate for bomber crews was higher than for the infantry. He had been married for less than a year when he experienced this.

I have seem him confronted and asked how he felt about dropping bombs and murdering defenseless women and children during the war. He didn't drop his head or lower his eyes. He wasn't going to let this person's prejudice against the military affect him.

I would erect a monument to his memory in a minute. And I wouldn't really care what the political or social views of the VFW or members of the 8th Air Force Group were if they erected a memorial in his memory.
So my perspective on monuments and memorials is slightly different.

And I imagine the family of southern veterans of the Civil War felt the same, with no racist intent.

There are no perfect countries, very few perfect causes.
We don't pick where we are born, seldom which country we want to fight for.
Most just fought for their communities, their homes, and mainly their families. Nothing more, because nothing more was needed.

there were southern families that never knew what happened to their brothers, sons and husbands. They just never came home.
So to remove monuments erected to the common soldier's sacrifice, to their determination to protect their families and friends, the hardships they endured what ever the cost and put a racist reason behind it, in my opinion, is a great dishonor to these men and their families.

Gene, I had missed this till now - I just want to say I feel endlessly sorry and ashamed about what the Germans did to your father (and millions of others). As for dropping bombs - in the end your father wanted to do good, fight for the good. There wasn't any good intention on the German side. I don't know if it would have been possible to get the madness stopped without. Possibly - but in reality there's no "clean" war I think.

Reminds me of the term "collateral damage" which was awarded "Un-word of the Year" in 1999, referring to the civilian casualties in the Kosovo war. (An annual society award to the year's most offensive popularized term.)

As for the very few perfect causes - in the end most wars are somehow about power, no?

[David Lockmiller]

The last paragraph from President Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address reads as follows:

“With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.”

New York Times, September 3, 2017

When the towers of the National Home for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers in Milwaukee began rising after the Civil War, they were seen as soaring monuments to the nation’s benevolence. . . . Old Main was a model of modernity when it was authorized in 1865 by one of the last official acts of President Abraham Lincoln. It became home to about 1,000 former soldiers who rose at reveille each morning and dressed in blue uniforms, then filed into companies organized by disability. One visitor at the time praised the wards as “large and cheerful: well ventilated and well lighted.”

As the building aged into obsolescent, it stubbornly resisted solutions. In 2011, local preservationists got Old Main protected as a national historic landmark. But in recent years, preservationists working with local veterans and the Department of Veterans Affairs, worked out a 75-year lease that will allow a developer who specializes in historic preservation, the Alexander Company, to renovate Old Main and five other historic buildings on the campus as apartments for homeless veterans. “The bones of this building are great. You could never afford to build something like this today,” said Joe Alexander, the company’s chief executive.

[David Lockmiller]

I think that the statues of General Lee with his horse Traveller should remain standing wherever they are now. The following are a few stories of interest regarding General Lee and his horse Traveller. (And, as you will see, the horse’s name is not misspelled.)

“My brother then offered him the horse as a gift, which the General promptly declined, and at the same time remarked: ‘If you will willingly sell me the horse, I will gladly use it for a week or so to learn its qualities.’ Thereupon my brother had the horse sent to General Lee’s stable. In about a week the horse was returned to my brother, with a note from General Lee stating that the animal suited him, but that he could not longer use so valuable a horse in such times, unless it was his own; that if he (my brother) would not sell, please to keep the horse, with many thanks. This was in February, 1862. At that time I was in Virginia, on the sick list from a long and severe attack of camp fever, contracted in the campaign on Big Sewell mountains. My brother wrote me of General Lee’s desire to have the horse, and asked me what he should do. I replied at once: ‘If he will not accept it, then sell it to him at what it cost me.’ He then sold the horse to General Lee for $200 in currency, the sum of $25 having been added by General Lee to the price I paid for the horse in September, 1861, to make up the depreciation in our currency from September, 1861, to February, 1862.

“In 1868 General Lee wrote to my brother, stating that this horse had survived the war–was known as ‘Traveller’ (spelling the word with a double l in good English style), and asking for its pedigree, which was obtained, as above mentioned, and sent by my brother to General Lee.”

The most notable incident occurred in the Wilderness on May 6, [1864]when soldiers of the Texas Brigade surrounded Traveller and shouted, ‘Lee to the rear!’ That day Traveller carried Lee until well after midnight, and when they finally returned to camp, Lee dismounted, and overcome with exhaustion, he threw his arms around Traveller’s neck to hold himself up.

One afternoon in July of this year [?], the General rode down to the canal-boat landing to put on board a young lady who had been visiting his daughters and was returning home. He dismounted, tied Traveller to a post, and was standing on the boat making his adieux, when someone called out that Traveller was loose. Sure enough, the gallant grey was making his way up the road, increasing his speed as a number of boys and men tried to stop him. General Lee immediately stepped ashore, called to the crowd to stand still, and advancing a few steps gave a peculiar low whistle. At the first sound, Traveller stopped and pricked up his ears. The General whistled a second time, and the horse with a glad whinny turned and trotted quietly back to his master, who patted and coaxed him before tying him up again. To a bystander expressing surprise at the creature’s docility the General observed that he did not see how any man could ride a horse for any length of time without a perfect understanding being established between them.

Here is how General Lee felt about Traveller… this excerpt is from a letter to his daughter when she had commissioned an artist to paint Traveller:

I purchased him in the mountains of Virginia in the autumn of 1861, and he has been my patient follower ever since — to Georgia, the Carolinas, and back to Virginia. He carried me through the Seven Days battle around Richmond, the Second Manassas, at Sharpsburg, Fredericksburg, the last day at Chancellorsville, to Pennsylvania, at Gettysburg, and back to the Rappahannock. From the commencement of the campaign in 1864 at Orange, till its close around Petersburg, the saddle was scarcely off his back, as he passed through the fire of the Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, and across the James River. He was almost in daily requisition in the winter of 1864-65 on the long line of defenses from Chickahominy, north of Richmond, to Hatcher’s Run, south of the Appomattox. In the campaign of 1865, he bore me from Petersburg to the final days at Appomattox Court House. You must know the comfort he is to me in my present retirement….Of all his companions in toil, ‘Richmond,’ ‘Brown Roan,’ ‘Ajax,’ and quiet ‘Lucy Long,’ he is the only one that retained his vigor. The first two expired under their onerous burden, the last two failed. You can, I am sure, from what I have said, paint his portrait. R.E. Lee

Lee spent his final years as president of Washington College in Lexington, Va., where Traveller was allowed to graze the campus. He lost numerous hairs from his mane and tail as admirers plucked them for souvenirs. I read a letter from General Lee to his daughter where he stated that Traveller is going BALD from all the students grabbing hair samples!

Lee became ill in September 1870, and on October 12 he died at his home in Lexington.

Traveller walked behind the hearse at Lee’s funeral and continued to be well cared for up until his death in June 1871. After stepping on a nail and contracting tetanus, commonly known as lockjaw, Traveller was euthanized.

[L Verge]

(09-04-2017 11:54 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I think that the statues of General Lee with his horse Traveller should remain standing wherever they are now. The following are a few stories of interest regarding General Lee and his horse Traveller. (And, as you will see, the horse’s name is not misspelled.)

“My brother then offered him the horse as a gift, which the General promptly declined, and at the same time remarked: ‘If you will willingly sell me the horse, I will gladly use it for a week or so to learn its qualities.’ Thereupon my brother had the horse sent to General Lee’s stable. In about a week the horse was returned to my brother, with a note from General Lee stating that the animal suited him, but that he could not longer use so valuable a horse in such times, unless it was his own; that if he (my brother) would not sell, please to keep the horse, with many thanks. This was in February, 1862. At that time I was in Virginia, on the sick list from a long and severe attack of camp fever, contracted in the campaign on Big Sewell mountains. My brother wrote me of General Lee’s desire to have the horse, and asked me what he should do. I replied at once: ‘If he will not accept it, then sell it to him at what it cost me.’ He then sold the horse to General Lee for $200 in currency, the sum of $25 having been added by General Lee to the price I paid for the horse in September, 1861, to make up the depreciation in our currency from September, 1861, to February, 1862.

“In 1868 General Lee wrote to my brother, stating that this horse had survived the war–was known as ‘Traveller’ (spelling the word with a double l in good English style), and asking for its pedigree, which was obtained, as above mentioned, and sent by my brother to General Lee.”

The most notable incident occurred in the Wilderness on May 6, [1864]when soldiers of the Texas Brigade surrounded Traveller and shouted, ‘Lee to the rear!’ That day Traveller carried Lee until well after midnight, and when they finally returned to camp, Lee dismounted, and overcome with exhaustion, he threw his arms around Traveller’s neck to hold himself up.

One afternoon in July of this year [?], the General rode down to the canal-boat landing to put on board a young lady who had been visiting his daughters and was returning home. He dismounted, tied Traveller to a post, and was standing on the boat making his adieux, when someone called out that Traveller was loose. Sure enough, the gallant grey was making his way up the road, increasing his speed as a number of boys and men tried to stop him. General Lee immediately stepped ashore, called to the crowd to stand still, and advancing a few steps gave a peculiar low whistle. At the first sound, Traveller stopped and pricked up his ears. The General whistled a second time, and the horse with a glad whinny turned and trotted quietly back to his master, who patted and coaxed him before tying him up again. To a bystander expressing surprise at the creature’s docility the General observed that he did not see how any man could ride a horse for any length of time without a perfect understanding being established between them.

Here is how General Lee felt about Traveller… this excerpt is from a letter to his daughter when she had commissioned an artist to paint Traveller:

I purchased him in the mountains of Virginia in the autumn of 1861, and he has been my patient follower ever since — to Georgia, the Carolinas, and back to Virginia. He carried me through the Seven Days battle around Richmond, the Second Manassas, at Sharpsburg, Fredericksburg, the last day at Chancellorsville, to Pennsylvania, at Gettysburg, and back to the Rappahannock. From the commencement of the campaign in 1864 at Orange, till its close around Petersburg, the saddle was scarcely off his back, as he passed through the fire of the Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, and across the James River. He was almost in daily requisition in the winter of 1864-65 on the long line of defenses from Chickahominy, north of Richmond, to Hatcher’s Run, south of the Appomattox. In the campaign of 1865, he bore me from Petersburg to the final days at Appomattox Court House. You must know the comfort he is to me in my present retirement….Of all his companions in toil, ‘Richmond,’ ‘Brown Roan,’ ‘Ajax,’ and quiet ‘Lucy Long,’ he is the only one that retained his vigor. The first two expired under their onerous burden, the last two failed. You can, I am sure, from what I have said, paint his portrait. R.E. Lee

Lee spent his final years as president of Washington College in Lexington, Va., where Traveller was allowed to graze the campus. He lost numerous hairs from his mane and tail as admirers plucked them for souvenirs. I read a letter from General Lee to his daughter where he stated that Traveller is going BALD from all the students grabbing hair samples!

Lee became ill in September 1870, and on October 12 he died at his home in Lexington.

Traveller walked behind the hearse at Lee’s funeral and continued to be well cared for up until his death in June 1871. After stepping on a nail and contracting tetanus, commonly known as lockjaw, Traveller was euthanized.

Thank you, David, for this beautiful tribute to two remarkable examples of American history told without hatred.

I had just finished reading the following piece sent to me by my cousin's husband. I think it appropriate to share here to show that American heroes are still out there today doing God's work on behalf of their fellow men. Too bad that the few who are walking to the White House today for another protest don't use their energy in a similar manner -- put their muscle where their mouth is...

Let this sink in for a minute.....Hundreds and hundreds of small boats pulled by countless pickups and SUVs from across the South are headed for Houston. Almost all of them driven by men. They're using their own property, sacrificing their own time, spending their own money, and risking their own lives for one reason: to help total strangers in desperate need.

Most of them are by themselves. Most are dressed like the redneck duck hunters and bass fisherman they are. Many are veterans. Most are wearing well-used gimme-hats, t-shirts, and jeans; and there's a preponderance of camo. Most are probably gun owners, and most probably voted for Trump. These are the people the Left loves to hate, the ones Maddow mocks. The ones Maher and Olbermann just *know* they're so much better than. These are The Quiet Ones. They don't wear masks and tear down statues. They don't, as a rule, march and demonstrate. And most have probably never been in a Whole Foods.

But they'll spend the next several days wading in cold, dirty water; dodging gators and water moccasins and fire ants; eating whatever meager rations are available; and sleeping wherever they can in dirty, damp clothes. Their reward is the tears and the hugs and the smiles from the terrified people they help. They'll deliver one boatload, and then go back for more.

When disaster strikes, it's what men do. Real men. Heroic men. American men. And then they'll knock back a few shots, or a few beers with like-minded men they've never met before, and talk about fish, or ten-point bucks, or the benefits of hollow-point ammo, or their F-150. And the next time they hear someone talk about "the patriarchy", or "male privilege", or safe spaces from micro aggression on the media they'll snort, turn off the TV and go to bed.

In the meantime, they'll likely be up again before dawn. To do it again. Until the helpless are rescued. And the work's done. They're unlikely to be reimbursed. There won't be medals. They won't care. They're American heroes, it is just who they are and what they do.

[David Lockmiller]

(09-04-2017 12:11 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(09-04-2017 11:54 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I think that the statues of General Lee with his horse Traveller should remain standing wherever they are now. The following are a few stories of interest regarding General Lee and his horse Traveller.

Thank you, David, for this beautiful tribute to two remarkable examples of American history told without hatred.

Yesterday, I learned that Robert E. Lee had the most bizarre, paternalistic and religious view of the southern institution of slavery of which I have ever heard in detail. Robert E. Lee's opinion regarding slavery was expressed in a letter to his wife written in response to a speech given by then President Pierce. In this letter, Lee predicted the probable outcome of civil war. Lee was 49 years old at the time and the letter was written less than five years before the American Civil War began.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?