Sons and parents

[Eva Elisabeth]

I'd like to learn what the forum members feel and think:
Did any of the Lincoln kids "prefer"* any parent (Mary or Abraham)? Who whom if?
(*"Prefer" or "feeling the most/closer attached to".)

Thanks for sharing any of your thoughts on this!

[RJNorton]

This is just my feeling, and it applies mostly to the Springfield years. I think the young boys felt close to both parents pretty equally. I once read that a typical Sunday in the 1850's went as follows: Mary would go to church while Abraham and the boys preferred to stay home and play games and "horseplay" on the living room floor. Abraham was gone from home so much that I think this kind of thing was very important. I believe there was a great deal of love in the Lincoln family - the parents loved the boys and the boys loved the parents. I know Mary hosted birthday parties for the boys and had a particularly large one in 1859 for Willie's 9th birthday. She personally addressed invitations to 50 or 60 children. I know I have read that Willie was the favorite of both parents, but I rather think this is simply an author's opinion, not necessarily actual fact. I think the love was equally shared within the family. Just my opinion.

I believe the young boys were attached to both parents; the issues between Mary and Robert came much later in life.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks, Roger. As for Tad and Willi I feel the same. As for (even young) Robert - he seemed to have been more distant (equally??) to both his parents, what would you think?

[RJNorton]

Eva, this is not an exact reply to your question, but W.A. Evans writes:

"Had it not been for the death of Edward at four years, the children would have been close enough in age to have made effective the education and social value of fraternal contacts and influences, without being so close as to overtax the mother's time and energy. As it was, Robert was too old to exercise much influence on the lives of Willie and Tad, nor did they help him much. In the grouping of the children in their activities, we find Willie and Tad in close and constant association, while Robert stood apart. Those men with whom I have talked of their Lincoln associations have referred to themselves as playmates of Robert or playmates of Willie and Tad, but never as playmates of Robert and the younger boys. Had Edward lived, he would have bridged this gap."

Although author Evans is describing the seeming interactions (or lack of) among the boys themselves, and not referring to how the parents felt, I have the idea that the parents did sort of put Robert in one category and Willie and Tad lumped together in another. This could partially be due to the age differences, of course, but it could also be due to Robert being more "distant" due to his personality. I do have the idea that Robert was generally more "distant" from both his parents than Willie and Tad. Just my opinion.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I feel similar. Wasn't Robert at times (e.g. when A. L. visited him in Exeter) embarrassed because of his father's appearance (or were it only Robert's fellow students who felt "compassion" - before they heard A. L. speaking and changed their minds?)? And his mother he once rebuffed: “No, mother, I do not propose to assist in entertaining Tom Thumb. My notions of duty, perhaps, are somewhat different than yours.” Seems he felt differences to both?!

[Gene C]

Don't want to over anaylize this, but Robert probably went through what most teens do. A bit embarrassed by their parents, a bit rebellious, and the son of a very famous person (who through much of his presidency was very unpopular). Robert spend a great part of his adult life protecting the image and legend of his father (and at the same time always living in his father's shadow) and doing his best in trying to take care of a strong willed mother who was not quite right upstairs. All in all, he probably did a pretty good job, under the circumstances. We havn't even touched on his marriage to a women who was born with a silver spoon in her mouth, and his own rebellious daughter. Life ain't easy for the rich and famous either. Sometimes the things we are envious of bring their own share of troubles.

I think both parents were very proud of their children. Robert was just beginning to show his potential as an adult when his father died..

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Eva!

Typically thought provoking and interesting topic from you!

I agree with Roger. I think there was a lot of love in the Lincoln house. I think Mary tended to brag about their children and I remember reading that AL was embarrassed by this. Mary also reportedly stopped speaking to someone who opined that Robert was not a pretty baby. Willie, Tad, and even poor little Eddie seemed absolutely crazy about their father.But I get the feeling that as a child and for much of his youth it was Mary that Robert was closest too. He identified with her patrician roots and especially with his Todd relatives. She doted on him and visited him at Harvard during the WH years. My belief is that Robert was extremely proud of his father late in life and revered his memory, but for reasons I have never been quite sure of there was not the complete adulation toward AL that the other children had.

Maybe it was simply a question of temperament? And I have always wondered if the intense closeness between AL and Willie and Tad would have lasted if the boys had grown to adulthood and if Lincoln had not died. Willie in particular seemed to be a highly intelligent deep thinker, devoutly religious even as a child. If he had grown to adulthood might there eventually have been some friction there? Hero-worship of a parent does not always survive childhood. But we will never know.

Now...as for the Lincolns as parents? The good news is that they apparently showered the kids with love and approval when they were young. Mary read to them and encouraged an interest in literature. AL taught them to love nature during walks in the woods. Corporal punishment was given to them but only rarely which must have been unique for those times. They were also encouraged to express themselves and to have their own opinions, VERY unique for 19th century children.

But they were way too permissive with the children imo. They had bad manners and were spoiled and undisciplined-especially in the case of Tad during the WH years. But even Tad showed promise before his tragically early death. He seemed to be growing into a lovely young man. How much of that was due to his early strong foundation of love and how much due to the influence of the excellent discipline of the European educational system he was exposed to after the assassination?

[RJNorton]

(01-07-2015 01:08 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Don't want to over anaylize this, but Robert probably went through what most teens do. A bit embarrassed by their parents, a bit rebellious, and the son of a very famous person....Robert was just beginning to show his potential as an adult when his father died.

I think this is a good point. I feel Robert did quite a bit of growing up during his time at Harvard. In January 1862 Harvard's president, Cornelius C. Felton, wrote Abraham Lincoln about Robert. Felton told the President that Robert "had become intimate with some of the idled persons in his class." Because of this his grades had fallen, especially in chemistry. In chemistry "his failure has been complete."

Felton was of the opinion that Robert did not need to be censured but that be must turn himself around.

Felton continued by telling the President, "He (Robert) is a good, ingenious, frank and pleasant young man, with the ability to do well in every department...I have no doubt a word or two from you will set everything right; for I feel quite sure that he has no bad habits as yet."

It is not known for certain if Abraham talked to Robert about this letter. But Robert's grades did improve afterwards, especially during his junior and senior years. Willie's death in February 1862 may also have influenced Robert to get more serious.

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Roger for quoting from Prof. Felton's letter to the president about his school performance. How much pressure to be in an elite institution such as Harvard to be begin with, but to have such a high profile person as the President of the U.S. as a parent!

There is no doubt in my mind that A.L. had a word with his eldest son!

[Eva Elisabeth]

Gene, Toia and Roger - thank you for these GREAT replies!

(01-07-2015 03:20 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 01:08 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Don't want to over anaylize this, but Robert probably went through what most teens do. A bit embarrassed by their parents, a bit rebellious, and the son of a very famous person....Robert was just beginning to show his potential as an adult when his father died.

I think this is a good point.

A very good point!!!
As for Robert's conduct at Harvard I believe I just recently (was it in "The Last Lincolns"? I'll check tomorrow...) read that Abraham Lincoln threatened his son he (A.L.) would take him off if Robert didn't improve.

(01-07-2015 02:05 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  AL taught them to love nature during walks in the woods. Corporal punishment was given to them but only rarely which must have been unique for those times. They were also encouraged to express themselves and to have their own opinions, VERY unique for 19th century children.

What about the kids/educational methods of the other characters in the Lincoln saga? Herndon taught (especially nature) and encouraged his children, too. He was not permissive, but did he make use of corporal punishment?
What about Fanny Seward's parental treatment and upbringing, Linda? Or Kate Chase's, Laurie?

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Another question: If the Lincolns' marriage had been as a terrible one as some authors believe this would probably have affected the children. Did the Lincolns' children/their behavior indicate or show signs of a strained family situation?

[LincolnToddFan]

Eva, I can't say for sure but I would be very surprised if the Sewards used corporal punishment on their children, particularly fragile Fanny.

I think I remember reading that Herndon hit his children with a strap? Was it here on this Forum?

And Mary and AL did occasionally spank Robert when he was small. I think he ran away from home often.

Eva, that's a GREAT point about whether or not the strain in the Lincoln marriage adversely affected their children. I've never read any evidence that it did.(other than perhaps young Robert running away) The Lincoln children were never described as depressed and withdrawn as would have probably been the case if their home was a warzone. Quite the contrary...they were boisterous and completely uninhibited by all accounts.

But according to Michael Burlingame (A. Lincoln: A Life) Lincoln's dreadful relationship with Mary impacted his ability to bond with his sons.

Go figure, eh?

[Linda Anderson]

What about the kids/educational methods of the other characters in the Lincoln saga? Herndon taught (especially nature) and encouraged his children, too. He was not permissive, but did he make use of corporal punishment?
What about Fanny Seward's parental treatment and upbringing, Linda? Or Kate Chase's, Laurie?

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Eva, Fanny was adored by her parents. The following is from Sensitivity and Civil War: The Selected Diaries and Papers, 1858-1866, of Frances Adeline (Fanny) Seward by Patricia Carley Johnson.

"Despite her physical and emotional handicaps Frances Seward exerted every effort to be a good mother. Recognizing in Fanny a tender disposition akin to her own, she reared her daughter with firmness tempered with gentleness, understanding and affection. Nor would she or Seward permit anyone else to utter a harsh rebuke in front of the child."

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[RJNorton]

(01-07-2015 08:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I think I remember reading that Herndon hit his children with a strap? Was it here on this Forum?

You have an amazing memory, Toia! Kudos! It was mentioned briefly long ago on the forum, and here is the source. This information comes from p. 15-16 of David Herbert Donald's Lincoln's Herndon:

"A great teaser Billy was always playing practical jokes on his children. When he came home from town he would ask his daughter: "Who was that dirty-faced little boy I saw kissing you through the fence?" And as the child made indignant denials, he would catch her up in his arms and roar with laughter. A kind parent was Herndon, yet not an overindulgent one. The children had to know their place. He loved to have Mollie and Lizzie and Annie romping in his flower garden but if they picked a rose, remembers his daughter, "believe me he'd know it." And when Nat interrupted his father s speech at a Republican rally by shouting "Hurrah for the Democrats!" the razor strap was put into use that night."


There is a footnote for this. Donald's information came from a letter Herndon's eldest daughter wrote to William E. Barton. The letter is on p. 365 of Barton's The Paternity of Abraham Lincoln.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-08-2015 12:15 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  

(01-07-2015 07:32 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

What about the kids/educational methods of the other characters in the Lincoln saga? Herndon taught (especially nature) and encouraged his children, too. He was not permissive, but did he make use of corporal punishment?
What about Fanny Seward's parental treatment and upbringing, Linda? Or Kate Chase's, Laurie?

---

Eva, Fanny was adored by her parents. The following is from Sensitivity and Civil War: The Selected Diaries and Papers, 1858-1866, of Frances Adeline (Fanny) Seward by Patricia Carley Johnson.

"Despite her physical and emotional handicaps Frances Seward exerted every effort to be a good mother. Recognizing in Fanny a tender disposition akin to her own, she reared her daughter with firmness tempered with gentleness, understanding and affection. Nor would she or Seward permit anyone else to utter a harsh rebuke in front of the child."

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Thank you, Linda. I recall she was adored, but don't know anything about her (school) education. What about the point Toia made of encouraging the children to have an opinion? If I recall correctly e.g. Julia Taft, at home (but not at the White House with the Lincolns), was restricted in this regard in some way. But maybe boys enjoyed
greater liberties to do so?

I also still wonder what kind of woman Mary Harlan was. Was she as "modern" in such matters (e.g. interest in politics, stating her opinion freely) as MTL, or was she a rather Victorian woman who held back and restrained herself to the women's duties/chores of the days (in German called "the 3 K's" - "Kinder, Küche, Kirche", meaning "children, kitchen, church" - is there any appropriate/similar English phrase for this?)? Did Mary Harlan "meddle" into Robert's career like MTL did in her husbands?

[Linda Anderson]

According to Patricia Carley Johnson, Fanny tried attending boarding schools but she dropped "out of one school after another. Constantly concerned by their daughter's ill-health, her parents did not force the issue. Thus, the brunt of Fanny's education fell squarely on Mrs. Seward."

Fanny had dancing lessons, riding lessons, "and a succession of French, painting, singing and piano teachers."

"As the years passed and the girl's interest in literature grew rather than diminished, Frances assumed the role of guide and critic...
"Together she and Fanny read and analyzed much of the world's literature from Shakespeare through Tennyson to Fanny's own special favorite, the American novelist, Theodore Winthrop.
"When Fanny decided to take up writing, she received nothing but encouragement from her mother."

I hope Fanny's biographer, Trudy Krisher, will see this thread so she can give you a more detailed answer, Eva, but I think Fanny was encouraged to have opinions and to express them, at least in the family circle.