Washington Redskins

[Rsmyth]

I was watching ESPN and they had a story about protestors outside the stadium demanding Washington drop the "Redskins" name. Right after that they showed clips of the Chicago Blackhawks of which there does not appear to be any controversy regarding the name. Redskin is a derogatory term just like calling someone of Asian ancestry "yellowman." Do people on this board feel that the Redskins should drop the name and what of the Blackhawks? Although using the name of an Indian tribe does not seem as bad as using a slur, should those types of names be dropped from all athletic teams whether it be high school, college or pro?

I would love to hear from Eva as to European soccer and rugby team names. Do they have similar issues?

[Gene C]

I don't remember it being a slur in the 60's, 70's or 80's.

I've been called worse, and you don't hear me complaining.

Maybe these folks should spend their time in volunteering at an Indian reservation instead of spending it protesting. Then they might have more credibility.

These news producers at ESPN have turned into a bunch of namby pambys.

Tune in tomorrow and I'll tell how I really feel about it.

[L Verge]

(11-05-2014 03:18 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I don't remember it being a slur in the 60's, 70's or 80's.

I've been called worse, and you don't hear me complaining.

Maybe these folks should spend their time in volunteering at an Indian reservation instead of spending it protesting. Then they might have more credibility.

These news producers at ESPN have turned into a bunch of namby pambys.

Tune in tomorrow and I'll tell how I really feel about it.

I love you, Gene! This old lady is getting really tired of "political correctness..." Have you seen the rather long missile going around about how many teams, etc. would need to change their names if we carry through with this all the way?

My favorite response was a cartoon showing how Washington could keep its Redskin name -- stick a red-skinned potato on the helmet instead of the warrior's profile.

I am now putting on my Redskins helmet to protect me from the arrows that are going to be shot at me for bad-mouthing political correctness.

[Linda Anderson]

"Redskin" is a slur and therefore should not be used. Here are two articles addressing the issue.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment...ed/373198/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-...n-redskins

[Eva Elisabeth]

(11-05-2014 02:05 PM)Rsmyth Wrote:  I would love to hear from Eva as to European soccer and rugby team names. Do they have similar issues?

No, I don't know of any comparable team name, thus of no issue.

On brand name comes to my mind - I grew up with a popular candy (then) called "Negerküsse" (negro kisses), a marshmallow covered with chocolate, now they are called "Schokoküsse" (chocolate kisses).

[Gene C]

Linda, I respect your opinion. We see this issue from different perspectives.

[Rsmyth]

Hi Gene, I agree that back then this was not an issue but things change over time, including attitudes. It is a matter of tolerance and respect. Would I care is someone called me "white boy?" No, but I think if someone respected me they would not use that term. If my Uncle William hated his name and wanted to be called Billy, I would acknowledge his wish. What's the big deal?

[L Verge]

It is not the name "Redskins" that I am fighting to protect. It is the indeterminable amount of witch-hunting that is going on in America right now with what appears to be the sole purpose of finding something else to divide us. That is what I am fighting against.

It just appears to me that we have more than enough serious issues to contend with than p.c.'ing everything to death. The fact that less than half of the Native Americans polled have any objections to "Redskins" tells me that they may be more observant of what's important than many of us are.

I married into an Italian/Russian family and got teased about being a "white breader" and "cake eater" because I was mainly English, Scottish, and French. Now that I think about it, maybe I should have filed for divorce because my in-laws were casting slurs at me!?!

In closing, what in the heck does this have to do with this Lincoln forum? Wonder what Lincoln and his father called our Native American brethren?

[Gene C]

Your right, it shouldn't be a big deal. Both sides should just trust us to handle it for them for a nominal fee. We'd save them $$ in the long run. How does this sound, we could keep the same logo, but change the team name (my apologies to Johnny Cash) to "Boys Named Sioux".

On second thought, this may need a little more work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOHPuY88Ry4

[RJNorton]

Laurie, I checked the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, and perhaps this is at least a partial reply to what you asked about. On March 27, 1863, a group of Native American chiefs visited the White House. The meeting with Lincoln took place in the East Room. The March 28, 1863, Washington Chronicle carried Lincoln's speech to the chiefs:

``You have all spoken of the strange sights you see here, among your pale-faced brethren; the very great number of people that you see; the big wigwams; the difference between our people and your own. But you have seen but a very small part of the palefaced people. You may wonder when I tell you that there are people here in this wigwam, now looking at you, who have come from other countries a great deal farther off than you have come.

``We pale-faced people think that this world is a great, round ball, and we have people here of the pale-faced family who have come almost from the other side of it to represent their nations here and conduct their friendly intercourse with us, as you now come from your part of the round ball.''

Here a globe was introduced, and the President, laying his hand upon it, said:

``One of our learned men will now explain to you our notions about this great ball, and show you where you live.''

Professor Henry then gave the delegation a detailed and interesting explanation of the formation of the earth, showing how much of it was water and how much was land; and pointing out the countries with which we had intercourse. He also showed them the position of Washington and that of their own country, from which they had come.

The President then said:

``We have people now present from all parts of the globe---here, and here, and here. There is a great difference between this palefaced people and their red brethren, both as to numbers and the way in which they live. We know not whether your own situation is best for your race, but this is what has made the difference in our way of living.

``The pale-faced people are numerous and prosperous because they cultivate the earth, produce bread, and depend upon the products of the earth rather than wild game for a subsistence.

``This is the chief reason of the difference; but there is another. Although we are now engaged in a great war between one another, we are not, as a race, so much disposed to fight and kill one another as our red brethren.

``You have asked for my advice. I really am not capable of advising you whether, in the providence of the Great Spirit, who is the great Father of us all, it is best for you to maintain the habits and customs of your race, or adopt a new mode of life.

``I can only say that I can see no way in which your race is to become as numerous and prosperous as the white race except by living as they do, by the cultivation of the earth.

``It is the object of this Government to be on terms of peace with you, and with all our red brethren. We constantly endeavor to be so. We make treaties with you, and will try to observe them; and if our children should sometimes behave badly, and violate these treaties, it is against our wish.

``You know it is not always possible for any father to have his children do precisely as he wishes them to do.

``In regard to being sent back to your own country, we have an officer, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, who will take charge of that matter, and make the necessary arrangements.''

The President's remarks were received with frequent marks of applause and approbation. ``Ugh,'' ``Aha'' sounded along the line as the interpreter proceeded, and their countenances gave evident tokens of satisfaction.

Image source: p. 207 of Lincoln: An Illustrated Biography by
Philip B. Kunhardt Jr.; Philip B. Kunhardt III; and Peter W. Kunhardt.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(11-05-2014 06:57 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  On brand name comes to my mind - I grew up with a popular candy (then) called "Negerküsse" (negro kisses), a marshmallow covered with chocolate, now they are called "Schokoküsse" (chocolate kisses).

When the re-naming happened, an artist created this picture showing "Schokoküsse", entitled "Inside we are all equal":
   

[Rsmyth]

I do not believe the labeling itself is the issue just as I do not believe the people of Bordeaux object to wines labeled as such. It is when the label or part of it has been used in a derogatory way has turned, much like zombies. They were good once, now they are bad. Stay away from them.

[L Verge]

Thanks for the synopsis of Lincoln's interaction with the visiting chiefs, Roger. I didn't even have this in mind when I posed the question of what Abraham and his father would have thought about slurring the Indians. I was relating to Thomas Lincoln having seen his father killed by Indians and Abe having fought Indians in the Blackhawk War.

This synopsis however does show Mr. Lincoln doing a little slurring on his own. The term "paleface" isn't heard much any more, but he used it several times (showing what the Indians called us white folk), and he also referred to "red brethren." Should we clean up his speeches to make them p.c.?

BTW: Other than it being the principle of the matter, I haven't understood why Dan Snyder doesn't cave in and change the name to Washington Warriors. There are certainly many ethnicities who can proudly claim warriors in their heritage. Of course, the name was originally chosen, I think, by one of America's great statesmen, George Marshall.

[Eva Elisabeth]

May I ask, when and why was the team name chosen? I would think a team usually chooses a name for positive connotations attached to it.

[L Verge]

(11-06-2014 11:59 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Thanks for the synopsis of Lincoln's interaction with the visiting chiefs, Roger. I didn't even have this in mind when I posed the question of what Abraham and his father would have thought about slurring the Indians. I was relating to Thomas Lincoln having seen his father killed by Indians and Abe having fought Indians in the Blackhawk War.

This synopsis however does show Mr. Lincoln doing a little slurring on his own. The term "paleface" isn't heard much any more, but he used it several times (showing what the Indians called us white folk), and he also referred to "red brethren." Should we clean up his speeches to make them p.c.?

BTW: Other than it being the principle of the matter, I haven't understood why Dan Snyder doesn't cave in and change the name to Washington Warriors. There are certainly many ethnicities who can proudly claim warriors in their heritage. Of course, the name was originally chosen, I think, by one of America's great statesmen, George Marshall.

Before all the fanfare associated with Redskins football, there was the name itself.

•More than a decade ago, in the authoritative linguistic survey “I Am A Red-Skin: The Adoption of a Native American Expression (1769-1826),” Ives Goddard—the senior linguist and curator at the Smithsonian Institution—concluded that the word “redskins” was created by Native Americans, and that it was first used as an inclusive expression of solidarity by multi-tribal delegations who traveled to Washington, D.C. to negotiate national policy towards Native Americans. “The actual origin of the word (redskin) is entirely benign,” Goddard is quoted as saying.

•Prominent Indian leaders of the 19th century—from Sitting Bull (a Hunkpapa Lakota Chief) to French Crow (Principal Chief of the Wahpekute band of Santee Sioux) to Tecumseh (a Shawnee chief)—are documented as having referred to themselves as “Red Men” or “Red-skins.”

•On the inaugural Redskins team in 1933, four players and then-head coach William Henry “Lone Star” Dietz identified themselves as Native Americans.

P.S. The Redskins were first fomed and named in the City of Boston. They used the same stadium as the Boston Braves, so George Preston Marshall (as in the Marshall Plan after WWII) wanted to distinguish the football team from the baseball team. Redskins happened to be a name that had not been already used.