Incident at an Antique Store

[BettyO]

Quote:But that is exactly what did happen. And while I genuinely sympathize with people like Betty and Laurie who see the flag as the banner under which their ancestors went into war to fight for the land they lived on against the Northern invader, I also know that the Stars and Bars was one of the last things that victims of the KKK saw before they were lynched by them. What should be an emblem of unsullied regional pride-kind of the way I feel about my beloved black, white, red and gray OSU football jersey-has become something much more sinister for many people.

And it is through no fault of Southerners who do not identify with Klan philosophy or beliefs.

Exactly what I mean, Toia! Thanks so much - you said it much better than I did - when and why and how did such twist around? But then also one wonders how when and why the Jewish people became targets of the Nazis? I have a great many German and Jewish friends - and I love them all! One can't blame the entire German nation for a handful of fanatics - just as one can't blame the entire South for a handful of ignorant backwoods types who see something entirely hateful in what once was a respected banner.

Thanks, Toia!

I think it's time to retire this discussion -

[Rsmyth]

Mr. Bill, your answer speaks volumes. Thank you for at least being honest.

[Wild Bill]

And your questions speak volumes, too

[Eva Elisabeth]

Re: KKK, actually the Nazis, too, adapted, twisted, and ruined an ancient symbol for their purposes:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[tblunk]

(08-09-2014 07:09 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Re: KKK, actually the Nazis, too, adapted, twisted, and ruined an ancient symbol for their purposes:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

A few years ago we visited the newly refurbished West Baden Springs Hotel, near French Lick, Indiana. It is quite stunning. Originally built in 1900-ish, there are swastikas in the cast iron porch posts. They had information in several places explaining that the swastika was a symbol for luck prior to being used by the Nazis.

[Craig Hipkins]

Wow! Interesting discussion here, even if it is a little heated. I moved south to North Carolina many years ago after serving in the Marine Corps. I grew up in Massachusetts and had no idea that I had a thick New England accent until the Drill Instructors at Parris Island informed me of it!!!! While growing up in Massachusetts I recall some of the kids in my high school (native New Englanders ) wearing Confederate tee-shirts and flying the Stars and Bars on the back of their pick up trucks. These kids had no idea what the history of that flag was, or what it originally represented. Sure, they knew of its Civil War history, but were ignorant of the causes of that conflict, and frankly they probably could have cared less. They flew it because to them it represented a certain freedom from Authority. A few years ago I was in London and met a cabbie who was wearing a stars and bars skull cap and tee shirt. It was kind of funny to hear this guy talk with a thick cockney accent dressed in this manner.
I mention these things only to make people aware that the rebel flag has taken on a meaning that transcends its original one.
As a native New Englander I am in know way offended by people who fly that flag. To each his own.... That being said, I can see why people of African heritage, and others, might take offence as to its prominent display above certain State Capitols. It should not be here. The National Flag and State Flag should be the only flags flying here. Maybe a Marine Corps flag also!!!!!

Craig

[LincolnToddFan]

(08-09-2014 08:11 AM)tblunk Wrote:  

(08-09-2014 07:09 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Re: KKK, actually the Nazis, too, adapted, twisted, and ruined an ancient symbol for their purposes:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

A few years ago we visited the newly refurbished West Baden Springs Hotel, near French Lick, Indiana. It is quite stunning. Originally built in 1900-ish, there are swastikas in the cast iron porch posts. They had information in several places explaining that the swastika was a symbol for luck prior to being used by the Nazis.

German born Alexandra Feodorovna, Russia's last Empress, loved the swastika and sewed it on her personal embroidery. She taught her four daughters to do likewise. This was of course many years before Hitler and the Nazis co-opted it as the symbol of the Third Reich.

Craig,

Regardless of my personal feelings about it, I agree that Southerners should be able to display their banner on their cars, homes, lawns, or whatever personal property they have and they should not be harassed or judged for it. BUT...I also 100% agree that the Confederate banner does not belong on Federal property...at all. And if it is flown on State property it should take it's place under the Stars and Stripes and the official State flag.

This is, after all, the United States of America.

[Rick Smith]

Just to clear up one small issue that I noticed during this discussion; the "Stars & Bars" is not the flag in question. The Stars & Bars was the First National Flag of the Confederacy.

The flag in question, which my ancestors from Virginia proudly fought under is the "Starry Cross" or the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the St. Andrew's Cross.

[LincolnToddFan]

I didn't know. Thank you Rick.

[BettyO]

Quote:Re: KKK, actually the Nazis, too, adapted, twisted, and ruined an ancient symbol for their purposes:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

You are so right, Eva - it's an ancient Greek symbol -

Likewise, Toia and Rick - you are also both correct. This is the United States of America - NOT the Confederate States of America - so I agree with you definitely regarding flying the flag on Federal buildings - and yes, the flag that we're talking about is the Battle Flag - not the "First National" - nor is it the "Bonnie Blue" or "Second National", etc. Thanks for posting that, Rick!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_th...of_America

[Gene C]

Now I'm really confused about the flag in question. So I decided to go to the ultimate authority - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_th...of_America

The flag seems to represent different things to different people.

Does anyone want to attempt in 100 words or less (less is preferred) what the Confederate Battle Flag is suppose to represent politically and socially?

(and remember, Ms. Verge will be grading your papers at the end of class)

bonus question - what's the difference (in purpose and symbolism) between the Confederate Battle Flag and the National Flag of the Confederacy?

[Rick Smith]

(08-09-2014 04:38 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Now I'm really confused about the flag in question. So I decided to go to the ultimate authority - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_th...of_America

The flag seems to represent different things to different people.

Does anyone want to attempt in 100 words or less (less is preferred) what the Confederate Battle Flag is suppose to represent politically and socially?

(and remember, Ms. Verge will be grading your papers at the end of class)

bonus question - what's the difference (in purpose and symbolism) between the Confederate Battle Flag and the National Flag of the Confederacy?

Gene,

Not quite sure about the symbolism, excepting that the Battle Flag had stars to represent the states which seceded, but the purpose, at least at first, was to avoid confusion on the battle field, 1st Manassas being the case in point. I believe that General Beauregard designed the starry Cross, or Battle Flag. The Bonnie Blue Flag, which bore a single, white star on a blue field, was a symbol of revolution.

Toia & Betty,

You are welcome, ladies.

Rick

[L Verge]

To reinforce Rick's correct history of the battle flag:

Confederate Battle Flag
Contributed by Thomas G. Clemens
The Confederate battle flag, initially authorized for units of the Confederate armed forces during the American Civil War (1861–1865), has become one of the most recognized, misunderstood, and controversial symbols in American history. Originally designed as a Confederate national flag by William Porcher Miles of South Carolina, it was rejected by the Confederate Congress but subsequently adopted by the Confederate army, which needed a banner that was easily distinguishable from the United States flag. The battle flag transformed into a national symbol as the Army of Northern Virginia, with which it was closely associated, also became an important symbol. It even was incorporated into the Confederacy's Second and Third National flags. Following the war, proponents of the Lost Cause used the battle flag to represent Southern valor and honor, although it also was implicitly connected to white supremacy. In the mid-twentieth century, the battle flag simultaneously became ubiquitous in American culture while, partly through the efforts of the Ku Klux Klan, becoming increasingly tied to racial violence and intimidation. African Americans conflated the battle flag to opposition to the civil rights movement, while neo-Confederates argued that its meaning had to do with states' rights and southern identity, not racial hatred. The political and social lines of dispute over the flag remain much the same at the beginning of the twenty-first century.

The above is just an opening paragraph for an excellent article that Eva suggested in a Stump the German posting today at http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Conf..._Flag#its1 If you read the entire article, you'll learn that the battle flag did not start to take on "evil" connotations until after WWII, when the Civil Rights Movement really began in earnest.

[David Lockmiller]

(08-07-2014 02:47 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  With apologies to Roger Norton, who has seen all this before. . . . I just could not resist:

Well, well, well, dog my cats and please pass the grits and greens! Someone is bucking for the Harry Reid award for stereotypical, condescending, politically-correct language. I guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored?

You mean to tell me that the Yankees won the war? Mind ‘splaining why it took to 1964 until they won the peace, led by a Southerner? Next time you try to belittle those who still fail to see the New Birth of Freedom and its prime advocate, “Honest” Abe Lincoln the rail-splitter (or is it word-splitter) as the savoir and not the ruination of what the Founding Fathers wrought, be sure one of good ole boys in the pickup trucks with the loud pipes and Confederate flag flying from the radio antenna is not one of the recipients of yore Northern, holier-than-thou slander. I bet you thought we just plain could not read, huh? Nazism my foot!

There is an old story about the Southern gal who was sent to charm school to learn to say the word “fantastic” instead of “bull *****.” You ought to keep up with the more recent Lincoln historiography that finds him, his presidency, and his policies in peace and war less than noble. But i guess that that is impossible because your fawning adoration of, what was it Secretary of War Stanton (or was it General George McClellan) called him? --“the baboon in the White House," I believe. It’s all quite fantastic, isn’t it?

Well, y’all (you know the difference between y’all and all y’all?) will have to excuse me, good buddies, I have to go out and warm up the ole P.U. truck and hoist the Rebel flag, and hit the horn once real goooood, ‘cause it plays “Dixie.” Fantastic! Who’d a thunk it? Well, in all honesty, my door bell plays it, too, and it’s the ring tone on my cell phone. You Yanks shore do make some mighty fancy stuff!

Fantastic!

Excuse me for being so slow in returning yore e-mail. We do things a mite slow out thisaway. Did you know that Scarlett O’Hara was pregnant for 13 months in the first draft of Gone with the Wind? That damnyankee editor made Margaret Mitchell change it—even after she explained that the South was slow on everything. Makes you wonder where Stonewall Jackson’s “foot cavalry” come from. Bye now, hear?

William L. Richter (they do not call me Wild Bill for nuttin'!)
From the sovereign state of Louisiana
(hell, they even give me a collig degree from LSU! Shows you where education in the South has gone. Fantastic!)

I was watching the Ken Burns production on Mark Twain on PBS a week or so ago. I remember one part especially when the narrator read a portion from "Huckleberry Finn," toward the end of the book.

I about made up my mind to pray, and see if I couldn't try to quit being the kind of a boy I was and be better. So I kneeled down. But the words wouldn't come. Why wouldn't they? It warn't no use to try and hide it from Him. or from me, neither. I knowed very well why they wouldn't come. It was because my heart warn't right; it was because I warn't square; it was because I was playing double. I was letting on to give up sin, but away inside of me I was holding on to the biggest one of all. I was trying to make my mouth say I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that *****'s owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie,and He knowed it. You can't pray a lie--I found that out.

So I was full of trouble, full as I could be; and didn't know what to do. At last I had an idea; and I says, I'll go and write the letter--and then see if I can pray. Why, it was astonishing, the way I felt as light as a feather right straight off, and my trouble all gone. So I got a piece of paper and a pencil, all gad and excited, and set down and wrote:

Miss Watson, your runaway ***** Jim is down here two mile below Pikesville, and Mr. Phelps has got him and he will give him up for the reward if you send. Huck Finn.

I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now. But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking--thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell. And went on thinking. And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me all the time: in the day and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing. But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind. I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, 'stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him again in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and such-like times; and would always call me honey, and pet me, and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had smallpox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around and see that paper.

It was a close place. I took it up, and held it in my hand. I was a-trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it. I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself: "All right, then, I'll go hell" -- and tore it up.

It was awful thoughts and awful words, but they was said. And I let them stay said; and never thought no more about reforming. I shoved the whole thing out of my head, and said I would take up wickedness again, which was in my line, and being brung up to it, and the other warn't. And for a starter I would go to work and steal Jim out of slavery again; and if I could think up anything worse, I would do that, too; because as long as I was in, and in for good, I might as well go the whole hog. [The End]

I guess that President Abraham Lincoln went the "whole hog" on the slavery question. It was President Lincoln that created and implemented the Emancipation Proclamation. It was President Lincoln that created and got passed the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which ended slavery forever in the United States of America. Fantastic!!! I reckon then that there is more than one definition of the word, fantastic. I prefer my definition in reference to the character and works of President Abraham Lincoln.

[L Verge]

And I shall continue to learn about and understand Mr. Lincoln while honoring the memory of Southern patriots who fought for their beliefs -- and after defeat went back to desolation and waste and struggled through the hard times (and harsh Radical measures) to restore their lands and property. Their actions show character and dedication also. And they and their descendants went on to join forces with their conquerors to fight enemies of the UNITED States of America for another 150 years.