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Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 10:12 AM by Gene C.)

I haven't read yet Hanchett's article, but I've read some of your thoughts on the William Percy web site, such as your "Suggestions in the New Testament that Jesus had a Gay Life Style" . You and I think in different directions, and to me this is another example of your taking things out of context in which they occurred or were written. Your very inteligent, and educated, but your also good at twisting the truth, seing into things that just aren't there and drawing conclusions based on what you want to see. (of coarse, you can say some of the same about me)

I think we're just to far apart on this to ever reach an agreement about this aspect of Lincolns life.
Hopefully we can find common ground on other topics.

Lewis Gannett · 06-25-2014, 10:12 AM

(06-25-2014 09:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I haven't read yet Hanchett's article, but I've read some of your thoughts on the William Percy web site, such as your "Suggestions in the New Testament that Jesus had a Gay Life Style" . You and I think in different directions, and to me this is another example of your taking things out of context in which they occurred or were written. Your very inteligent, and educated, but your also good at twisting the truth, seing into things that just aren't there and drawing conclusions based on what you want to see. (of coarse, you can say some of the same about me)

I think we're just to far apart on this to ever reach an agrrement about this aspect of Lincolns life.

Thanks Gene for the honest expression of your sentiments. About William Percy's website & Jesus, I didn't argue that "Jesus was gay," but examined the work of a scholar with a new take on the N.T. But yes, the topic surely is most controversial and not for everyone. All I ask is that you read what I write with a sense of balance and fairness. I will do the same for you.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 10:44 AM by Gene C.)

(06-25-2014 09:41 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Gene C, about "heart of a thousand strings":

The source is a letter from Henry C. Whitney to Herndon dated June 23, 1887 (late in Hendon's investigation, which is interesting). You'll find it in Herndon's Informants, p. 617. About "context": I leave it up to you to establish your own sense of context. Go to HI, read Whitney's letter, form your own conclusions. Here's a partial quote. By the way, Whitney crossed it out, but it remained legible. What might that mean? Take a stab at figuring it out, Gene C!

"My opinion is (somewhat unlike yours) that Lincoln would have greatly enjoyed married life if he had go [sic] either Ann Rutledge or Miss Edwards. I think he would have been very fond of a wife had he had one to suit. But I also doubt if he would have been as great a man as he was. I have heard him say over & over again about sexual contact. 'It is the harp of a thousand strings.' Oliver Davis thought his mind run on sexual [matters] [unintelligible]."

thanks for the info...here is what Wikipedia (not my favoirite source) has to say about Henry Whitney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Clay_Whitney
(under "Works" ..."Whitney has been described as an 'unscrupulous reporter', willing to stretch the facts to make his point".)

Just my observation..."I've heard him say over & over agian....."
If Lincoln really did say it over & over again, it's a shame that no one else remembers or documented that Lincoln said this.

Lewis Gannett · 06-25-2014, 11:10 AM

(06-25-2014 10:40 AM)Gene C Wrote:
(06-25-2014 09:41 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Gene C, about "heart of a thousand strings":

The source is a letter from Henry C. Whitney to Herndon dated June 23, 1887 (late in Hendon's investigation, which is interesting). You'll find it in Herndon's Informants, p. 617. About "context": I leave it up to you to establish your own sense of context. Go to HI, read Whitney's letter, form your own conclusions. Here's a partial quote. By the way, Whitney crossed it out, but it remained legible. What might that mean? Take a stab at figuring it out, Gene C!

"My opinion is (somewhat unlike yours) that Lincoln would have greatly enjoyed married life if he had go [sic] either Ann Rutledge or Miss Edwards. I think he would have been very fond of a wife had he had one to suit. But I also doubt if he would have been as great a man as he was. I have heard him say over & over again about sexual contact. 'It is the harp of a thousand strings.' Oliver Davis thought his mind run on sexual [matters] [unintelligible]."

thanks for the info...here is what Wikipedia (not my favoirite source) has to say about Henry Whitney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Clay_Whitney
(under "Works" ..."Whitney has been described as an 'unscrupulous reporter', willing to stretch the facts to make his point".)

Just my observation..."I've heard him say over & over agian....."
If Lincoln really did say it over & over again, it's a shame that no one else remembers or documented that Lincoln said this.

Gene, you're not suggesting that Henry Whitney had a gay agenda, are you? Just kidding! Hey, who knows what Whitney meant exactly, and to how many people he quoted Lincoln on sexual contact & the harp. I get the feeling that Whitney, with some reluctance, was trying to express to Herndon that Lincoln saw sexual experience as complex thing. Needless to say that interpretation could easily be wrong.

David Lockmiller · 06-25-2014, 01:22 PM

(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Dear RJ Norton and LincolnToddFan,

The idea that Lincoln had a mental breakdown in 1836 is almost certainly a mistaken reference to travails he experienced in August and September of 1835. What happened during that time? Many historians have accepted Herndon's conclusion that Lincoln grieved deeply for Ann Rutledge, who died on August 25, probably of typhus. But that conclusion has had its ups and downs.

I do not understand 1836 being Lincoln's mental breakdown year. Is that just a typographical error?

The well-respected Lincoln scholar Ida Tarbell published a book in 1896 entitled The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln. She interviewed many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed for his famous lecture on the Abraham Lincoln-Ann Rutledge love story and thus had the first-hand opportunity to measure credibility of her witnesses familiar with the story. The last chapter of the book is entitled "Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge--The Story of Their Love." I quote from the last section of that chapter entitled "Ann's Engagement to Lincoln" (pages 214-18). Ida Tarbell wrote:

The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon after, on August 25, 1835, Ann died.

The death of Ann Rutledge plunged Lincoln into the deepest gloom. That abiding melancholy, that painful sense of the incompleteness of life,which had been his mother's dowry to him, asserted itself. (emphasis added) It filled and darkened his mind and his imagination, tortured him with its black pictures. One stormy night he was sitting beside William Greene, his head bowed on his hand, while tears trickled through his fingers; his friend begged him to control his sorrow, to try to forget. "I cannot," moaned Lincoln; "the thought of the snow and rain [falling] on her grave fills me with indescribable grief."

He was found walking alone by the river and through the woods, muttering strange things to himself. He seemed to his friends to be in the shadow of madness. They kept a close watch over him; and at last Bowling Green, one of the most devoted friends Lincoln then had, took him home to his little log cabin, half a mile north of New Salem, under the brow of a big bluff.

Here, under the loving care of Green and his wife Nancy, Lincoln remained until he was once more master of himself.

But though he had regained self-control, his grief was deep and bitter. [this was in 1835, not 1836] Ann Rutledge was buried in Concord cemetery, a country burying-ground seven miles northwest of New Salem. To this lonely spot Lincoln frequently journeyed to weep over her grave. "My heart is buried there," he said to one of his friends.

When McNamar returned (two months after Ann Rutledge died) and learned of Ann's death, he "saw Lincoln at the post-office," as he afterward said, and "he seemed desolate and sorely distressed." On himself, apparently, her death produced no deep impression. Within a year he married another woman; and his conduct toward Ann Rutledge is to this day a mystery.

Many years ago a sister of Ann Rutledge, Mrs. Jeane Berry, told what she knew of Ann's love affairs; and her statement has been preserved in a diary . . . . She declared that Ann's "whole soul seemed wrapped up in Lincoln," and that they "would have been married in the fall or early winter" if Ann had lived. "After Ann died," said Mrs. Berry, "I remember that it was common talk about how sad Lincoln was; and I remember myself how sad he looked. They told me that every time he was in the neighborhood after she died, he would go alone to her grave and sit there in silence for hours."

In later life, when his sorrow had become a memory, he told a friend who questioned him: I really and truly loved the girl and think often of her now." There was a pause, and then he added : "And I have loved the name of Rutledge to this day." [this friend would have been Isaac Cogdal at the White House]

Ida M. Tarbell is a well-respected Lincoln scholar and author. What important alleged facts contained within the foregoing narrative do you intend to dispute in your about-to-be-published book? And, if "1836" is not a typo within your statement at the beginning of this post, please inform us of the event(s) which caused Lincoln's relapse.

Lewis Gannett · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 02:29 PM by Lewis Gannett.)

(06-25-2014 01:22 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:
(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Dear RJ Norton and LincolnToddFan,

The idea that Lincoln had a mental breakdown in 1836 is almost certainly a mistaken reference to travails he experienced in August and September of 1835. What happened during that time? Many historians have accepted Herndon's conclusion that Lincoln grieved deeply for Ann Rutledge, who died on August 25, probably of typhus. But that conclusion has had its ups and downs.
I do not understand 1836 being Lincoln's mental breakdown year. Is that just a typographical error?
The well-respected Lincoln scholar Ida Tarbell published a book in 1896 entitled The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln. She interviewed many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed for his famous lecture on the Abraham Lincoln-Ann Rutledge love story and thus had the first-hand opportunity to measure credibility of her witnesses familiar with the story. The last chapter of the book is entitled "Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge--The Story of Their Love." I quote from the last section of that chapter entitled "Ann's Engagement to Lincoln" (pages 214-18). Ida Tarbell wrote:

The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon after, on August 25, 1835, Ann died.

The death of Ann Rutledge plunged Lincoln into the deepest gloom. That abiding melancholy, that painful sense of the incompleteness of life,which had been his mother's dowry to him, asserted itself. (emphasis added) It filled and darkened his mind and his imagination, tortured him with its black pictures. One stormy night he was sitting beside William Greene, his head bowed on his hand, while tears trickled through his fingers; his friend begged him to control his sorrow, to try to forget. "I cannot," moaned Lincoln; "the thought of the snow and rain [falling] on her grave fills me with indescribable grief."

He was found walking alone by the river and through the woods, muttering strange things to himself. He seemed to his friends to be in the shadow of madness. They kept a close watch over him; and at last Bowling Green, one of the most devoted friends Lincoln then had, took him home to his little log cabin, half a mile north of New Salem, under the brow of a big bluff.

Here, under the loving care of Green and his wife Nancy, Lincoln remained until he was once more master of himself.

But though he had regained self-control, his grief was deep and bitter. [this was in 1835, not 1836] Ann Rutledge was buried in Concord cemetery, a country burying-ground seven miles northwest of New Salem. To this lonely spot Lincoln frequently journeyed to weep over her grave. "My heart is buried there," he said to one of his friends.

When McNamar returned (two months after Ann Rutledge died) and learned of Ann's death, he "saw Lincoln at the post-office," as he afterward said, and "he seemed desolate and sorely distressed." On himself, apparently, her death produced no deep impression. Within a year he married another woman; and his conduct toward Ann Rutledge is to this day a mystery.

Many years ago a sister of Ann Rutledge, Mrs. Jeane Berry, told what she knew of Ann's love affairs; and her statement has been preserved in a diary . . . . She declared that Ann's "whole soul seemed wrapped up in Lincoln," and that they "would have been married in the fall or early winter" if Ann had lived. "After Ann died," said Mrs. Berry, "I remember that it was common talk about how sad Lincoln was; and I remember myself how sad he looked. They told me that every time he was in the neighborhood after she died, he would go alone to her grave and sit there in silence for hours."

In later life, when his sorrow had become a memory, he told a friend who questioned him: I really and truly loved the girl and think often of her now." There was a pause, and then he added : "And I have loved the name of Rutledge to this day." [this friend would have been Isaac Cogdal at the White House]

Ida M. Tarbell is a well-respected Lincoln scholar and author. What important alleged facts contained within the foregoing narrative do you intend to dispute in your about-to-be-published book? And, if "1836" is not a typo within your statement at the beginning of this post, please inform us of the event(s) which caused Lincoln's relapse.

I said that referring to 1836 as the year of a Lincoln mental breakdown is almost certainly a mistaken reference to events of 1835. Lincoln didn't have a breakdown in 1836, to my knowledge. He did have a breakdown of some kind in '35. What about this is unclear? I have more to say, coming soon.

Mike B. · 06-25-2014, 03:28 PM

(06-25-2014 06:51 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: Hello Lewis.

We put far too much emphasis (thanks to Herndon) on whether Ann Rutledge was Lincoln's "greatest" love. She was A love, but I doubt she was his greatest. I wonder whether Lincoln ever had a "greatest" love other than the love he felt for his biological mother. Your attempts to conflate the Rutledge story with whether or not Lincoln's primary erotic response was same-sex are well-laid out in your articles and your decision to work with C.A. Tripp, so I don't want to rehash them here. However, as I've constantly said, you never prove it. There were witnesses in New Salem who were just as credible, although you dismiss them by showing those who never saw evidence of a romance. I would hazard a guess that there were a number of people even in the small hamlet of New Salem who didn't know anything about what their neighbors did behind closed doors. James Randall--actually Ruth, since it was she who wrote "Sifting the Ann Rutledge Evidence" in his biography--constantly had it out for Herndon because he didn't practice what Randall termed "historianship." Randall had a lot of influence in the mid 20th century but John Simon and Douglas Wilson did much to restore Herndon's work, which has been savagely and unfairly criticized here (among other places).

As for Lincoln's sexual orientation, I will leave you with just one question. What does it matter? I don't discount Tripp's thesis because I find homosexuality repugnant (as I've told you in the past). I discount it because it's irrelevant and because there's no direct physical evidence; only a lot of innuendo from a determined advocate for a cause, which is what Tripp was. I would be interested to see where Sandburg and Roy Basler talk about "the sexual problem" given that it could mean what you think, or it could mean the sexual encounters Lincoln had with frontier prostitutes. And I have thoroughly combed Ida Tarbell's papers (which I suggested you or someone else do) and there is no references to her candidly or discretely talking about anything relating to Lincoln's sexual life.

Can you or anyone else show that but for Lincoln's sexual orientation, he would have issued or retracted the Emancipation Proclamation? No. Would he have directed the Civil War differently? No. Whether or not Lincoln's primary erotic response was same-sex is as irrelevant as to whether Lincoln was attracted to flaxen-haired daughters of frontier shopkeepers. It tells us something about who he was, but in the end it tells us very little about who he really was.

Best
Rob

I haved agreed with Burlingame on the harmfullness of Ruth Painter Randall's "Sifting the Ann Rutledge Evidence." That she allowed her husband's name go out on made it more influential. It was a "Thus Sayeth the Lord" thing for almost 50 years.

It was harmful for reasons for nothing to do with Ann Rutledge. RPR was "after bigger game." The real target in it was the Herndon/Weik material. RPR was a fierce almost monomaniacal defender/apologist for Mary Lincoln. (Neely calls her biography, "overly defensive" and Donald says it needs to be balanced with Herndon's biography.) If she could discredit the Ann Rutledge story, she could discredit the Herndon/Weik material. As Burlingame says historians treated the valuable material like "high level toxic waste."

Interesting enough, even though the Herndon/Weik material is full of negative material on Mary. There is also positive stuff the RPR used in a bit of hypocrisy as she attacked past rememberances.

Mike B. · 06-25-2014, 03:45 PM

(06-25-2014 03:43 PM)Gene C Wrote: All I can say is we really enjoyed her "Lincoln's Animal Friends", even the parts about the cat.

Fido

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006AV...UTF8&psc=1

"Lincoln's Sons" wasn't bad.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 03:49 PM by Gene C.)

Sorry Mike, I accidently deleted the post trying to edit it.

Fido

Gene adds he's in the middle of reading her "Lincolns Sons" and is enjoying it too.

Lewis Gannett · 06-25-2014, 04:09 PM

David,

"I do not understand 1836 being Lincoln's mental breakdown year. Is that just a typographical error?"

I hope I've already cleared this up. It's not a typo, by the way. I think you misunderstood my sentence.

"The well-respected Lincoln scholar Ida Tarbell published a book in 1896 entitled The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln. She interviewed many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed for his famous lecture on the Abraham Lincoln-Ann Rutledge love story and thus had the first-hand opportunity to measure credibility of her witnesses familiar with the story."

Ida Tarbell's book appeared 61 years after Ann Rutledge died. Tarbell did not, in fact, interview "many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed." Most of the witnesses were dead well before 1896, including Ann's brother Robert Rutledge (d. 1881), by far the most important Rutledge informant--in fact, the only significant Rutledge informant (Jean Berry, Ann's sister, was very young when Ann died). Help me out: who did Tarbell interview who witnessed events in New Salem & environs in the late summer of 1835? Offhand I know of only one, William "Slick Willie" Greene, who in my opinion isn't a reliable source, as detailed at length in an article I published in Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, issue of Summer 2010 (Google lewis gannett ann rutledge to get the full text). Greene is the source of the anecdote about Lincoln's involuntary weeping over the memory of Ann, which you quote as follows:

"The last chapter of the book is entitled 'Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge--The Story of Their Love.' I quote from the last section of that chapter entitled 'Ann's Engagement to Lincoln' (pages 214-18). Ida Tarbell wrote: 'The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon after, on August 25, 1835, Ann died.... The death of Ann Rutledge plunged Lincoln into the deepest gloom. That abiding melancholy, that painful sense of the incompleteness of life, which had been his mother's dowry to him, asserted itself. (emphasis added) It filled and darkened his mind and his imagination, tortured him with its black pictures. One stormy night he was sitting beside William Greene, his head bowed on his hand, while tears trickled through his fingers; his friend begged him to control his sorrow, to try to forget. 'I cannot,' moaned Lincoln; 'the thought of the snow and rain [falling] on her grave fills me with indescribable grief.'"

Now, the first thing to say about Greene's statement is how Herndon-like it sounds. Even allowing for Victorian purple prose, it's way over the top. Second, no contemporary gave a first-hand account of Lincoln saying good-bye to Ann: the "anguished parting" is supposition. Yes, the deathbed farewell scene is famous. But we don't have an account. This is what we have: the little Rutledge farmhouse on McNamar's land some six miles out of New Salem was a scene of abject misery. The whole family was desperately ill with "brain fever" that had sickened the entire area. We have no first-hand account of a funeral for Ann; there might not have been a funeral. Few if any ceremonial niceties attended her death & that of others in what was probably a typhus epidemic. As one contemporary recalled, there weren't enough well people to take care of the sick. It was truly a terrible time for little New Salem and much of the rest of Southern Illinois. Greene quoted Lincoln lamenting rain and snow on Rutledge's grave. Lincoln did speak of rain on Ann's grave, according to one other firsthand account in addition to Greene's. Here's the thing, though: those two comments about rain on the grave are the only recorded references Lincoln made to Ann in the aftermath of her death. Isaac Cogdal supplied more Lincoln quotes about Ann, but these statements, if Lincoln really made them, which is highly doubtful, happened in '65 or '66, 30 years after the events. Think about this. Here we have alleged events of very high drama. But no one remembered Lincoln saying, at the time, anything about the tragedy other than remarks about rain. Actually, it's even more peculiar. Other than the two rain comments and Cogdal's dubious claims we have no reliable records that Lincoln ever spoke of or even wrote to Ann. "My heart is buried there," meaning the grave: no reputable historian will tell you that we have evidence that Lincoln uttered those words. Ann's name appears nowhere in the Collected Works. No letters from either party to the other. No contemporary diary accounts. No marriage documents.

David, I realize that you took some effort to compose your post, I thank you for it, and I'm glad to have made this reply. But there's not much point in me going further. You can find more details than you probably want to know about all of this in the JALA article.

Best, Lewis

RJNorton · 06-25-2014, 04:11 PM

The posts in this thread have been quite lengthy in some cases, and if this were already answered, I missed it - please excuse. Is it known for certain what happened to Herndon's secret Memo books? Did Herndon eventually destroy them? Are they lost to history? Do they still exist? Thanks.

Lewis Gannett · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 04:25 PM by Lewis Gannett.)

(06-25-2014 04:11 PM)RJNorton Wrote: The posts in this thread have been quite lengthy in some cases, and if this were already answered, I missed it - please excuse. Is it known for certain what happened to Herndon's secret Memo books? Did Herndon eventually destroy them? Are they lost to history? Do they still exist? Thanks.

The fate of the secret memo books remains a complete mystery, as far as I know. Alas!

(06-25-2014 03:45 PM)Mike B. Wrote:
(06-25-2014 03:43 PM)Gene C Wrote: All I can say is we really enjoyed her "Lincoln's Animal Friends", even the parts about the cat.

Fido

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006AV...UTF8&psc=1

"Lincoln's Sons" wasn't bad.

The animal stories are spectacular.

Mike B. · 06-25-2014, 04:27 PM

(06-25-2014 04:09 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: David,

"I do not understand 1836 being Lincoln's mental breakdown year. Is that just a typographical error?"

I hope I've already cleared this up. It's not a typo, by the way. I think you misunderstood my sentence.

"The well-respected Lincoln scholar Ida Tarbell published a book in 1896 entitled The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln. She interviewed many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed for his famous lecture on the Abraham Lincoln-Ann Rutledge love story and thus had the first-hand opportunity to measure credibility of her witnesses familiar with the story."

Ida Tarbell's book appeared 61 years after Ann Rutledge died. Tarbell did not, in fact, interview "many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed." Most of the witnesses were dead well before 1896, including Ann's brother Robert Rutledge (d. 1881), by far the most important Rutledge informant--in fact, the only significant Rutledge informant (Jean Berry, Ann's sister, was very young when Ann died). Help me out: who did Tarbell interview who witnessed events in New Salem & environs in the late summer of 1835? Offhand I know of only one, William "Slick Willie" Greene, who in my opinion isn't a reliable source, as detailed at length in an article I published in Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, issue of Summer 2010 (Google lewis gannett ann rutledge to get the full text). Greene is the source of the anecdote about Lincoln's involuntary weeping over the memory of Ann, which you quote as follows:

"The last chapter of the book is entitled 'Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge--The Story of Their Love.' I quote from the last section of that chapter entitled 'Ann's Engagement to Lincoln' (pages 214-18). Ida Tarbell wrote: 'The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon after, on August 25, 1835, Ann died.... The death of Ann Rutledge plunged Lincoln into the deepest gloom. That abiding melancholy, that painful sense of the incompleteness of life, which had been his mother's dowry to him, asserted itself. (emphasis added) It filled and darkened his mind and his imagination, tortured him with its black pictures. One stormy night he was sitting beside William Greene, his head bowed on his hand, while tears trickled through his fingers; his friend begged him to control his sorrow, to try to forget. 'I cannot,' moaned Lincoln; 'the thought of the snow and rain [falling] on her grave fills me with indescribable grief.'"

Now, the first thing to say about Greene's statement is how Herndon-like it sounds. Even allowing for Victorian purple prose, it's way over the top. Second, no contemporary gave a first-hand account of Lincoln saying good-bye to Ann: the "anguished parting" is supposition. Yes, the deathbed farewell scene is famous. But we don't have an account. This is what we have: the little Rutledge farmhouse on McNamar's land some six miles out of New Salem was a scene of abject misery. The whole family was desperately ill with "brain fever" that had sickened the entire area. We have no first-hand account of a funeral for Ann; there might not have been a funeral. Few if any ceremonial niceties attended her death & that of others in what was probably a typhus epidemic. As one contemporary recalled, there weren't enough well people to take care of the sick. It was truly a terrible time for little New Salem and much of the rest of Southern Illinois. Greene quoted Lincoln lamenting rain and snow on Rutledge's grave. Lincoln did speak of rain on Ann's grave, according to one other firsthand account in addition to Greene's. Here's the thing, though: those two comments about rain on the grave are the only recorded references Lincoln made to Ann in the aftermath of her death. Isaac Cogdal supplied more Lincoln quotes about Ann, but these statements, if Lincoln really made them, which is highly doubtful, happened in '65 or '66, 30 years after the events. Think about this. Here we have alleged events of very high drama. But no one remembered Lincoln saying, at the time, anything about the tragedy other than remarks about rain. Actually, it's even more peculiar. Other than the two rain comments and Cogdal's dubious claims we have no reliable records that Lincoln ever spoke of or even wrote to Ann. "My heart is buried there," meaning the grave: no reputable historian will tell you that we have evidence that Lincoln uttered those words. Ann's name appears nowhere in the Collected Works. No letters from either party to the other. No contemporary diary accounts. No marriage documents.

David, I realize that you took some effort to compose your post, I thank you for it, and I'm glad to have made this reply. But there's not much point in me going further. You can find more details than you probably want to know about all of this in the JALA article.

Best, Lewis

Cogdal may have got the wording wrong, but it is not to much to assume Lincoln made a reference to her when asked. Tripp tried to use the technique of similarity of writing to determine authorship in JALA, but this is a misuse. Cogdal can't be supposed to remember the exact wording of a six year old conversation. We are not dealing with a verbatim transcript of the conversation.

David Lockmiller · 06-25-2014, 04:30 PM

(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: But I'd like to share something that might be of interest. Herndon by his own account first heard the story of Lincoln's grief for Ann Rutledge shortly after the assassination, which is to say, almost thirty years after Ann died. This is noteworthy for a number of reasons. Herndon had personally known Ann. He'd known her father, with whom his own father had had business dealings. Indeed, relatives of Herndon's were living in New Salem at the time of Ann's death. But oddly enough, Herndon had never heard of Lincoln's love for Ann until May 1865, when he launched his investigation into Lincoln's early life. Why is this odd? Herndon since boyhood had taken a great interest in local politics. He'd followed Lincoln's career from the early days of his election in New Salem to the state legislature in Vandalia. Herndon certainly had joined in the celebrations following Lincoln's great coup in Vandalia, which involved moving the Illinois state capital from that town to Springfield, where Herndon lived. In short, Herndon grew up with first-hand knowledge of Lincoln's life in New Salem. Why then had Herndon never heard of Lincoln's love for Ann and his extreme distress when she died? I'm writing a book that will discuss that question. I'd be happy to talk about it here, but for now will close with this: Herndon's "great discovery" about Lincoln's tragic love affair looks mighty funny from the very beginning

Herndon wrote: "I never became acquainted with [Mr. Lincoln] till his second race for the Legislature in 1834." Herndon's Life of Lincoln, Da Capo paperback, 1983, page 73.

Herndon also wrote: "After his return from the Legislature, Lincoln determined to remove to remove to Springfield, the county seat, and begin the practice of law. . . . I had up to this time frequently seen Mr. Lincoln--had often, while visiting my cousins, James and Rowan Herndon, at New Salem, met him at their house--but became warmly attached to him soon after his removal to Springfield. There was something in his tall and angular frame, his ill-fitting garments, honest face, and lively humor that imprinted his indivduality on my affection and regard. What impression I made on him I had no means of knowing till many years afterward. He was my senior by nine years, and I looked up to him, naturally enough, as my superior in everything--a thing I continued to do until the end of his days." Ibid. pages 145-46.

Mr Gannett also wrote: "It's worth keeping in mind that New Salem was a tiny village, and nearby Springfield was a dusty little market town. Gossip moves fast in such locales. Why did it take Herndon thirty years to learn about a pivotal episode in his hero's youth?"

Why did not Lincoln's new law partner in Springfield know about this episode in Lincoln's life if it was common gossip in Sringfield? Or, the man who was shortly to become his best friend, Joshua Speed? (Speed wrote back that "It was news to him" after Herndon sent him a copy of the Ann Rutledge lecture.) Or, how about Judge Logan or Judge David Davis? Were they all part of Herndon's "devious" conspiracy? I supremely doubt it!

Lewis Gannett · 06-25-2014, 04:36 PM

(06-25-2014 04:27 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Cogdal may have got the wording wrong, but it is not to much to assume Lincoln made a reference to her when asked. Tripp tried to use the technique of similarity of writing to determine authorship in JALA, but this is a misuse. Cogdal can't be supposed to remember the exact wording of a six year old conversation. We are not dealing with a verbatim transcript of the conversation.

Mike,

It's true that Cogdal's quotes from Lincoln might not sound like Lincoln because Cogdal was recalling them after six years, and inadvertently used his own speaking style. I agree with you about that. But there are more serious problems with Cogdal's claims. Why was he the only person to whom Lincoln ever confided such personal acknowledgments about his past? Lincoln didn't even tell Joshua Speed about Ann Rutledge. I agree with David Donald and Tripp that the Cogdal evidence is very shaky. I don't however with agree with Tripp's argument about the phrasing, and told him so when we were preparing the book.