Those Booth Horses Again -

[JMadonna]

(04-10-2014 08:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(04-09-2014 10:49 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  I don't care how much adrenalin Booth had going through him, he could not have mounted that mare the way she was moving around using his allegedly broken left leg in the stirrup.

Peanuts Boroughs rested on a bench while holding the horse, didn't he? Is it possible JWB mounted the horse from that bench (thus without using the stirrup)?

Don't know about a bench but I can't see running top speed and jumping on a bench with a broken leg anymore than expecting a broken leg to hold all my weight while getting in a stirrup.

He'd have a better chance of vaulting off the horse's rear quarters and into the saddle like the old movies.

[L Verge]

When does it count that numerous doctors have said that the broken bone was not a weight-bearing one so that getting into the saddle - despite an obstreperous horse - was possible?

[J. Beckert]

I've heard Peanut was taking a nap on the bench and was startled by someone grabbing the reins, so he resisted. This was when Booth yelled "Give me that horse" and brought the butt of the knife down on his head.

[JMadonna]

(04-11-2014 11:47 AM)L Verge Wrote:  When does it count that numerous doctors have said that the broken bone was not a weight-bearing one so that getting into the saddle - despite an obstreperous horse - was possible?

Probably, when there is an actual documented case rather than assuming theoretical possibilities.

[L Verge]

I know people who are making considerable money by assuming theoretical possibilities throughout many fields of history - a lot of them on the Lincoln assassination topic. It's sad, but supposition seems to be the route to go today to get recognized.

[wsanto]

(04-11-2014 04:39 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(04-11-2014 11:47 AM)L Verge Wrote:  When does it count that numerous doctors have said that the broken bone was not a weight-bearing one so that getting into the saddle - despite an obstreperous horse - was possible?

Probably, when there is an actual documented case rather than assuming theoretical possibilities.

There are many documented cases in sports. Most recently a Boston Bruin played multiple shifts of a hockey game after suffering a broken fibula while blocking a shot. He certainly put more stress on his fibula skating at an NHL level of power and speed than someone mounting a skittish horse.

Below is another documented case. This is Slate.com article (couldn't copy and paste the link) about an olympic sprinter who broke his fibula during a sprint and continued the race in good time---

Aug. 9 2012 7:45

American Sprinter Manteo Mitchell Broke His Leg and Kept on Running. How Is That Possible?

By Krystal Bonner


Manteo Mitchell of the United States runs his leg of the 4-by-400-meter relay.

"I heard it and I felt it," American sprinter Manteo Mitchell told the Associated Press after breaking his leg on Thursday. Mitchell, who was halfway through his segment of the men’s 4-by-400 relay when he felt something snap, did what he said “almost any person would've done in that situation”—he finished the remaining 200 meters. His endurance wasn’t for naught: After Mitchell limped off, his three teammates completed the relay and qualified for the 4-by-400 final. After the race, doctors diagnosed Mitchell with a complete break of the left fibula and said the bone would heal in four to six weeks. How difficult is it to run 200 meters on a broken fibula?

Very difficult, but not impossible. The fibula is the smaller of the two bones that make up the lower leg, the other being the tibia. Unlike the tibia, the fibula is non-weight-bearing. As such, it is possible to run on a broken fibula. The pain, though, would be intense and would likely debilitate many athletes. The fact that Mitchell made it around the track in just more than 46 seconds—a time that placed him in a tie for fifth out of eight runners—is extremely impressive.

Yet Mitchell isn’t the first runner to finish a race with a broken fibula. In 2009, the New Orleans Times-Picayune reported that high schooler Matt Schwingshakl completed the final 80 meters of a 400-meter race on a broken fibula. "I tried to maintain form, that's what I concentrated on," Schwingshakl said. "I ignored the pain." And a 1998 Daily Telegraph story noted that an English amateur runner named Joanna McAdam completed a 10K on two broken fibulas. “I don't think I'll be doing that distance again,” McAdam said.


Krystal Bonner is a Slate intern.

[JMadonna]

As a young man who experienced a broken fibula while playing football, you'll have a very hard time convincing me that Booth was able to mount that horse.

I remember my friends helping me to my feet and standing on the broken leg, feeling little pain. But I distinctly remember trying to take a first step on my own (I was a tough guy back then) and collapsing. I know all injuries are different but there was no way I was able to walk, let alone run. The thought of lifting my broken foot as high as a stirrup, on a skittish horse may be possible in someone's world but I know it was not possible in mine.

I'd love to see Vegas odds-makers handicap that scenario.

[wsanto]

Jerry,

You are completely correct--every injury is different--especially ankle injuries. So much depends on where the fracture occurs on the fibula and how much collateral injury there is to the other soft tissues including the supporting ligaments that band the fibula to the tibia and to the foot.

Dr. Mudd said this in his statement--

"On examination, I found there was a straight fracture of the tibia about two inches above the ankle. My examination was quite short, and I did not find the adjoining bone fractured in any way. I do not regard it a peculiarly painful or dangerous wound; there was nothing resembling a compound fracture."

Based on this, Booth had a type C fibula fracture. That is a simple fracture above the ligament structure of the ankle.

I assume if Booth had fractured his fibula closer to the ankle he would have suffered more instability (because of concurrent ligament damage) which may have made it more unlikely he could run off the stage and mount a horse.

[JMadonna]

Ok Laurie. Let's exhume Booth's body and Xray his ankle to see if it were possible or not. That shouldn't be too big a problem for you, should it?

[Wild Bill]

All of this is very interesting. But it leaves out one thing. None of it actually relates to Booth. We do not know if he broke his leg coming out of Lincoln's box. We do not know if he broke his leg on the trail to the tavern. All we know is that by the time he got to the tavern he was on another horse and did no dismount. By the time he was at Mudd's he had a broken leg. Booth left 2 stories. He is dead and neither can be confirmed. None of us can prove either point.

I favor that Booth wrenched his back or slipped a disc in the theater, then fell with his horse in the muddy road and broke his leg bone, because Mudd's employee reported the horse was cut and bruised on the near front shoulder when he stabled him.

You need not buy that. But do not try to tell me I'm wrong. None of you knows enough about horses, to make your assertions ring true to me. Rick Smith rode Hunter seat as a teen and more and I have packed into the Grand Canyon for the US Govt and repaired the trail using mules for 5 years, and rode and shod horses and mules for 30 years. One does not get on a recalcitrant animal in the field with a game leg without a lot help. I do not recall Peanut John providing help--Hey! maybe he did?

I do not wish to be too snotty about this (but I will), but when it comes to suppositions I will lean towards Mike Kauffman over you all and me. He is not infallible (I disagree on his story about the loyal Samuel Mudd that the Mudd family holds dear) but he has researched this more deeply that we. I am only sorry that I cannot do his viewpoint justice since you all poo-poo his website because it does not provide primary sources. Where are yours?According to Kauffman, Booth's injury was the most common horse accident injury of the time, before Henry Ford changed our common mode of transportation. I'll go with him and that's that.

[Gene C]

(04-12-2014 08:54 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  I do not recall Peanut John providing help--Hey! maybe he did?

That's a good point Wild Bill. If Peanut John had helped Booth mount the horse, he certainly wouldn't have known yet that Booth had shot the president. If he had any sense, he wouldn't have admitted he helped Booth mount his horse to get away, (he might even say Booth hit him or struck him), out of fear for his own life and the wrath of Gov't authorities.

Would someone in the know please start a thread about Peanut John and his testiomny

[Jenny]

Quote:Rick Smith rode Hunter seat as a teen and more and I have packed into the Grand Canyon for the US Govt and repaired the trail using mules for 5 years, and rode and shod horses and mules for 30 years.

I won't tell you that you are wrong in asserting Booth had a horse accident as opposed to breaking his leg on stage. I mainly just want to say how neat it is that you repaired trails in the Grand Canyon.

Quote:According to Kauffman, Booth's injury was the most common horse accident injury of the time

I would love to know about his research on this. That's interesting.

[L Verge]

I forget the details, but Mike contacted a library or association somewhere here in the D.C. suburbs, and the personnel there provided him with the information that Booth's type of fracture was the most common for riders when their horse falls and rolls.

I am resorting back to one of my unanswered questions that I have posed for years: Would Booth's boots have relieved some of the pressure on the leg, coupled with adrenaline, allowing him to mount? It seems to me that Booth was in constant motion from the time that he landed on stage and didn't have time to realize that anything was wrong until he was already on the horse.

My other comment has become my motto over the past 25 or so years: Who gives a **** where the leg was broken? I'm sorry guys, but I am so sick of this constant debate becoming the focal point of the Lincoln assassination.

[Jenny]

Thanks for the info on Mike's research, Laurie!

I like your motto by the way. He broke it - who cares how.? It was broken. Fin.

[JMadonna]

(04-12-2014 11:37 AM)L Verge Wrote:  It seems to me that Booth was in constant motion from the time that he landed on stage and didn't have time to realize that anything was wrong until he was already on the horse.

That's the thing that bothered me with WSanto's runner. The runner was already in motion when the injury occurred so depending on the injury he'd either be on the ground or continue running.

Booth, if he broke it onstage, did so when landing. He was not in a running motion. Again, from my own experience, I find it not probable that he could start running from this standing broken leg start and then mount a horse.

Possible perhaps, but certainly not probable.