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RE: Erasing history - LincolnMan - 05-02-2013 04:06 PM
It seems our society has become increasingly intolerant-of traditional views, that is.
RE: Erasing history - Rob Wick - 05-02-2013 06:43 PM
What was considered a "traditional" view just 30 years ago has changed, and I would wager that has always been the case from time immemorial. Hopefully, we progress forward.
Best
Rob
RE: Erasing history - Liz Rosenthal - 05-02-2013 06:50 PM
(05-02-2013 09:04 AM)Rsmyth Wrote: Most Germans and the world agree that Nazi emblems should not be displayed yet the vestiges of concentration camps should remain as a reminder of the horrors that occurred.
That's true, but....
The concentration camps are there not to honor the Nazis but to remember the victims of the Holocaust. These sites also serve to guide humanity about what should *not* be done to one's fellow humans. In order for the monument outside Atlanta to be considered analogous to Holocaust memorials (even though we're not talking about the same level of atrocity), it would have to remember the victims of the Confederacy- in particular, the slaves - and assert in some way that slavery and/or secession should never happen again.
I imagine that I will now be pelted with figurative tomatoes.
As I wipe off these very nutritious bits of figurative fruit from my face and torso, I would also like to point out that, in Germany, it is a CRIME to advocate Nazism or Fascism. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case with Confederate history. Plus, there are the odd individuals here in the U.S. who try to assert that slavery really wasn't all that bad. And, a couple of years ago, you had the heads of certain states suggesting that they might not mind seceding. I didn't notice any prosecutions of the individuals advocating their strange positions.
RE: Erasing history - Jim Page - 05-02-2013 07:09 PM
Liz, I'm not lobbing produce at you in any way, but I always felt that a key element leading up to the Civil War was over whether individual states had the right to secede from the union. Unless I'm mistaken, at the time of the Civil War senators were appointed, not elected, and so they could perhaps view things differently than those officials elected by voters.
Also, and again I may be mistaken, I believe voters prior to 1850 were only white males who owned land (then about 15% of the population, if I remember correctly from 10th grade). After the land-owning restrictions on voting were eased after 1850, literacy tests were brought in as a qualification for voters in some states.
So it was a different time and I've never been convinced that slavery, per se, was the prime reason the Civil War was fought.
--Jim
RE: Erasing history - Rsmyth - 05-02-2013 07:36 PM
I am in Liz's camp with this one so hurl an avocado my way. Who here has seen the movie Sophie's Choice? It is one of the most disturbing movies ever and with an unforgettable scene where Sophie is given the choice of taking with her one of her two young sons. The other it is presumed to be taken away to be killed. Sophie never sees him again and is haunted by this the rest of her life. Now let's go back from WWII a hundred years to the slave blocks where families were separated never to be united and never knowing what happened to your child. For me this would be a fate worse than death.
RE: Erasing history - L Verge - 05-02-2013 08:03 PM
Can we all agree that slavery was a terrible blotch on our country -- as it has been and still is on other nations that deal in human traffic to this day? We are well-educated people who do not need to be reminded that our forefathers (North and South) held slaves 150+ years ago.
The whole idea that the Civil War changed American history is what we should be focusing on instead of trying to make people feel eternally guilty for something that they themselves had no part in. My guilt complex wore off a long time ago, so I now concentrate on trying to get along with other people and helping those who need and those who truly desire help. In my opinion, race relations and relations with other groups would be better off if we the people would remember what happened, learn from it, and move on - instead of using the word "slavery" as a tool to instill guilt. Isn't that the purpose of education? To learn how to do things better?
RE: Erasing history - Rob Wick - 05-02-2013 08:04 PM
Quote:So it was a different time and I've never been convinced that slavery, per se, was the prime reason the Civil War was fought.
The problem is, without slavery nothing else makes any sense. if you look at the petitions for secession of those states which left earlier, slavery was the main reason mentioned in every one. Southern states weren't talking about tariffs, etc., in their "declarations of independence."
As for secession itself, at best the Constitution is silent, which is a weak argument in its favor. As Lincoln said, no nation would have based in its founding document the seeds of its own destruction. And, of course, other states threatened secession, but the southern states were the only ones to see it through.
Best
Rob
RE: Erasing history - Gene C - 05-02-2013 11:37 PM
(05-02-2013 06:43 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: What was considered a "traditional" view just 30 years ago has changed, and I would wager that has always been the case from time immemorial. Hopefully, we progress forward.
Best
Rob
I wish I could agree Rob. While we seem to be in agreement on slavery and concentration camps, according to the Center for Disease Control,
there were 784,507 legal induced abortions in 2009, and the abortion rate was 227 abortions per 1,000 live births.
As a nation, I don't think we've made much progress. As an American, that's not a statistic I'm proud of. When a society shows such little respect for life, it will not have a healthy future. This is a lesson from the past we seem to refuse to learn
RE: Erasing history - LincolnMan - 05-03-2013 08:41 AM
I think America is in deep trouble on almost everyway. We are losing our freedoms-and it's alarming to see how quickly it is taking place.
RE: Erasing history - Eva Elisabeth - 05-03-2013 08:46 AM
(05-02-2013 08:03 PM)L Verge Wrote: Can we all agree that slavery was a terrible blotch on our country -- as it has been and still is on other nations that deal in human traffic to this day? We are well-educated people who do not need to be reminded that our forefathers (North and South) held slaves 150+ years ago.
The whole idea that the Civil War changed American history is what we should be focusing on instead of trying to make people feel eternally guilty for something that they themselves had no part in. My guilt complex wore off a long time ago, so I now concentrate on trying to get along with other people and helping those who need and those who truly desire help. In my opinion, race relations and relations with other groups would be better off if we the people would remember what happened, learn from it, and move on - instead of using the word "slavery" as a tool to instill guilt. Isn't that the purpose of education? To learn how to do things better?
It comforts me when you say it is more important to care for our current and future relationships with other people than just to be found guilty and to be judged for the evils of former generations. Grown up at the Dutch and Belgium border I soon in life experienced that being born in this country is like bearing the original sin, even if my generation was already the second to follow WWII. I learned that it is the best not to say where you are from and not to travel throughout Europe by car
with a German number plate. (I still can't easily say "I'm German", I'd say "from Germany").
Things have totally changed since the mid-1990ies and especially since the borders throughout Europe fell and we share one currency. Irrespective of political and economical difficulties there is no hostility anymore between the common people.These developments make me quite optimistic about future efforts and achievements of living together peacefully, liberally and justly - at least in the Western World.
RE: Erasing history - Rsmyth - 05-03-2013 08:54 AM
Change is inevitable. I remember the Custer National Battlefield, now rightly called the Little Big Horn NBF. How many sports teams are changing their names to become less offensive to certain peoples. We question the role Christopher Columbus played in our history. What about Thanksgiving? We celebrate eating turkey, pumpkin pie and watching football. Thr American Indian looks at the date that boat landed at Pilgrims Rock as the beginning of the end. History and Hollywood have turned Billy the Kid, Jesse James and Bonnie and Clyde into folk hero's. Some things are not as they appear and need to be portrayed more accurately. Thus change or at the very least question the possibility of change.
RE: Erasing history - Laurie Verge - 05-03-2013 10:03 AM
So, back to the original point of this thread -- does change require erasing history? I certainly hope not because, to me, that is a very stupid way of dealing with controversial issues.
RE: Erasing history - My Name Is Kate - 05-04-2013 04:10 AM
Robert E. Lee was opposed to slavery, was he not? He switched to the Confederate side to fight for states rights (I think) so I don't see any problem with leaving his image on the monument. I don't know about the other two.
RE: Erasing history - Bill Richter - 05-04-2013 08:09 AM
Before we all repeat the usual homilies about Robert E Lee, let's read Alan Nolan, Lee Considered. Everything may not be as Douglas Southall Freeman said.
RE: Erasing history - Rsmyth - 05-04-2013 08:12 AM
It seems that no one here wants to erase history but with our more politically and socially correct awareness, there is a need to interpret history correctly. In my town there was a monument to Tom Quick that stood over his remains in the middle of a side street just off the main road through town. Tom's father was killed by an Indian and Tom vowed to kill 100 Indians in revenge, which it is said he accomplished. All this was recounted on the monuments plaques as a testimony to Tom Quick the Indian Slayer. Through the years local Indian groups petitioned for the removal of the monument with no success. Within the last decade someone drove a car Into the monument and then took a sledgehammer to it. It was removed, ostensibly for repairs but has since remained out of view. In its place is now a plaque more sensitive to modern feelings and tells the story recounting the feelings that prevailed 200 years ago. This has seemed to satisfy all sides.