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Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Steve - 02-01-2022 01:55 PM
I came across this interesting article discussing Abraham Lincoln's relationship with his father which I thought some might find interesting:
https://www.sj-r.com/story/news/2022/01/31/talk-explore-abraham-lincolns-relationship-his-father/9268907002/
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - GustD45 - 02-01-2022 03:18 PM
I used to believe Lincoln hated his father, but now I'm not so sure. I know the father/son relationship can be fraught, but it's just hard to pinpoint this with Mr. Lincoln and his father.
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Gene C - 02-01-2022 05:58 PM
Without any proof, I have thought part of the friction between Abraham and his father had to do with Abraham not wanting the family business, the farm.
How many dad's want to leave the family business to their son. Abraham had no interest in the farm, (I don't think he ever did) and Thomas had no one to leave it to and keep it going except his second wife's children. Here Thomas had worked hard all his life, something to pass on to his son, and his only living child didn't want it, he turned his back on it.
There is probably more to it than that.
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - RJNorton - 02-02-2022 05:11 AM
Samuel Wheeler, who is interviewed in that article, is the newest member of our forum. Welcome, Dr. Wheeler!
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Gene C - 02-02-2022 08:47 AM
His presentation "More Painful Than Pleasant" will be at at 9 am Central Standard Time, Friday, Feb 11
"Wheeler's talk at the Trutter Center on the LLCC Springfield campus is free but registration is required at http://www.llcc.edu/lincoln-feb11 or by calling 217-786-2577. It is also available at Zoom at bit.ly/3r8XfA4 ."
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Rob Wick - 02-03-2022 11:34 AM
I'm glad to see Sam is presenting such an interesting topic, as well as learning that he's a forum member.
I've known Sam for years. We first met when he was a grad student of John Y. Simon in Carbondale. I had contributed to his forum and introduced myself to him via (I think) email. Although we haven't seen each other in a number of years, I try to keep in touch with Sam when something of interest concerning Lincoln comes up.
Sam is a dedicated and careful scholar. He is also a fine and decent human being. He did his doctoral dissertation on the poetry of Lincoln under Simon's direction until Simon's untimely death.
Good luck Sam!
Best
Rob
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - David Lockmiller - 02-03-2022 01:59 PM
(02-03-2022 11:34 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: I'm glad to see Sam is presenting such an interesting topic, as well as learning that he's a forum member.
I've known Sam for years. We first met when he was a grad student of John Y. Simon in Carbondale. I had contributed to his forum and introduced myself to him via (I think) email. Although we haven't seen each other in a number of years, I try to keep in touch with Sam when something of interest concerning Lincoln comes up.
Sam is a dedicated and careful scholar. He is also a fine and decent human being. He did his doctoral dissertation on the poetry of Lincoln under Simon's direction until Simon's untimely death.
Good luck Sam!
Best
Rob
On January 21, 2016, I created the following thread titled "RE: Who wrote the lines of poetry "quoted" by Lincoln at the Soldiers' Home?"
I made the following initial post:
I was reading last night from F. B. Carpenter's book "The Inner Life of Abraham Lincoln, Six Months at the White House" (p. 224) the two poetry quotes by Lincoln to the women at the Soldiers' Home cemetery and wanted to know who was the poet and the name of the poem from which Lincoln quoted. I was able to find the first two lines with a Google book search: “How Sleep the Brave” by William Collins (1746). But a similar search for the second two lines which Lincoln "afterwards quoted" -- "And women o'er the graves shall weep, Where nameless heroes calmly sleep." - I could not find either the name of the poet or the poem.
Is it possible that Lincoln himself became the anonymous poet in that moment, in that place, in the fall of 1864?
The complete narrative from one of the women’s story in the San Francisco Bulletin, as written by Carpenter at pages 223-24, reads as follows:
The ‘Home’ only admitted soldiers of the regular army; but in the graveyard near at hand there are numberless graves – some without a spear of grass to hide their newness – that hold the bodies of volunteers.
While we stood in the soft evening air, watching the faint trembling of the long tendrils of waving willow, and feeling the dewy coolness that that was flung out by the old oaks above us, Mr. Lincoln joined us, and stood silent, too, taking in the scene,
“How sleep the brave, who sink to rest
By all their country’s wishes blest,” –
he said, softly.
There was something so touching in the picture opened before us, -- the nameless graves, the solemn quiet, the tender twilight air, but more particularly our own feminine disposition to be easily melted, I suppose, -- that it made us cry as if we stood beside the tomb of our own dead, and gave point to the lines which he afterwards quoted: --
“And women o’er the graves shall weep,
Where nameless heroes calmly sleep.”
I was wondering if Dr. Wheeler had addressed this particular instance in his doctoral dissertation on the poetry of Lincoln. If so, I would very much like to know what he wrote on the subject.
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Rob Wick - 02-03-2022 06:50 PM
David,
Sam''s dissertation is 460 pages, and I just got in a slew of Ida Tarbell papers from Arizona, so I didn't get through it in a very detailed fashion, but I didn't see any reference to the lines you mention. Maybe Sam will also answer this.
Best
Rob
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Samuel Wheeler - 02-04-2022 11:56 AM
Steve--Thank you for linking the story on Lincoln and his father. The piece was the product of an interview to promote my upcoming talk on February 11. It's a fascinating topic that has been speculated upon too many times to count, though it remains shrouded in mystery. My talk will attempt to highlight the parameters of the debate, explore why it matters, and perhaps even shine some new light on the issue.
Roger--Thank you for the welcome! I have been an enthusiastic reader of the board for years and just recently made an account. I initially the account with the intention of posing a research question, but found the answer through another avenue before I got around to making a post. Nonetheless, it's great to be here! Now with my first post out of the way, perhaps I can chime in on other threads.
Rob--It's great to "reconnect" with you via the board. Please reach out to me the next time you're in Springfield. I'd love to have coffee and catch up. Thank you too for the kind words. Good luck mining the Tarbell collection you mention!
David--I really love Carpenter's book. He captures some wonderful quiet moments with Lincoln and recounts them in such a compelling manner.
My work certainly benefited from Carpenter's book, but I did not track down the poet in this particular passage.
A quick search this morning using a variety of databases came up empty. All searches pointed back to Lincoln. Searches looking for results prior to 1866 (publication of Carpenter's book) yielded nothing. So for now, the poet remains a mystery.
Could it have been Lincoln? So far, one cannot rule out that possibility.
However, the context with the quote is interesting. Lincoln presumably recites the lines and the woman remembers them, writes them down later, and still later, publishes the scene. I wonder how she remembered the lines? Maybe she was taking notes as he spoke? Or maybe she recognized the poem he was quoting and made a mental note? If that's the case, we should eventually be able to find the printed poem in a format that was widely available, prior to 1866.
However, to find the original poem, we need to be sure the transcription is accurate. In this case, are we sure the woman was able to capture his words accurately? If so, are we sure Lincoln recited the piece accurately? (we often get the "gist" of a quote correct but fumble the exact words--I do it all the time!) A search might benefit from using variations in word choice--the assumption being she or Lincoln may have misquoted the piece. That approach could yield something.
I applaud you for using online technology (google books) to track down the poet. It's a useful approach. That's the technique I used to determine neither of the Lincolns wrote the "Little Eddie" poem. In case you're interested, here's a link: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0033.205/--solving-a-lincoln-literary-mystery-little-eddie?rgn=main;view=fulltext
If you find the poet of this piece, please let me know!
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - David Lockmiller - 02-04-2022 01:22 PM
(02-04-2022 11:56 AM)Samuel Wheeler Wrote: If you find the poet of this piece, please let me know!
This poem is also known as William Collins‘ Ode Written in the Beginning of the Year 1746. In 1745 and early 1746, the British army suffered defeat in one battle in Belgium and two in Scotland. How Sleep the Brave
How sleep the brave, who sink to rest
By all their country’s wishes blest!
When Spring, with dewy fingers cold,
Returns to deck their hallow’d mould,
She there shall dress a sweeter sod
Than Fancy’s feet have ever trod.
By fairy hands their knell is rung;
By forms unseen their dirge is sung;
There Honour comes, a pilgrim grey,
To bless the turf that wraps their clay;
And Freedom shall awhile repair
To dwell, a weeping hermit, there!
~ William Collins (1721–1759)
William Collins (1721–1759) was a gifted and learned poet, but had to content with unfavorable circumstances and work amid uncongenial surroundings. Melancholy was his companion, and by the time he died, he was classified as insane.
It appears to me that Lincoln took from the poem what he needed and added what the occasion prompted.
Lincoln had a remarkable memory for poetry and prose.
And I share your opinion of Carpenter's work. On pages 50-51, Carpenter quotes Lincoln:
"There is one passage of the play of Hamlet which is very apt to be slurred over by the actor, or omitted altogether, which seems to me the choicest part of the play. It is the soliloquy of the king, after the murder. It always struck me as one of the finest touches of nature in the world."
Then, throwing himself into the very spirit of the scene, he took up the words:
"O my offence is rank, it smells to heaven;
It hath the primal eldest curse upon 't,
A brother's murder! -- Pray can I not,
Though inclination be as sharp as will;
My stronger guilt defeats my strong intent;
And, like a man to double business bound,
I stand in pause where I shall first begin,
And, both neglect.
. . . .
Try what repentance can; what can it not?
Yet what can it when one cannot repent?
O wretched state! O bosom black as death!
O bruised soul that, struggling to be free,
Art more engaged! Help, angels, make assay!
Bow, stubborn knees! And heart with strings of steel,
Be soft as sinews of the new-born babe;
All may be well!"
He repeated this entire passage from memory, with a feeling and appreciation unsurpassed by anything I ever witnessed upon the stage.
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - RJNorton - 02-04-2022 06:15 PM
(02-03-2022 11:34 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: I'm glad to see Sam is presenting such an interesting topic, as well as learning that he's a forum member.
I've known Sam for years. We first met when he was a grad student of John Y. Simon in Carbondale. I had contributed to his forum and introduced myself to him via (I think) email. Although we haven't seen each other in a number of years, I try to keep in touch with Sam when something of interest concerning Lincoln comes up.
Sam is a dedicated and careful scholar. He is also a fine and decent human being. He did his doctoral dissertation on the poetry of Lincoln under Simon's direction until Simon's untimely death.
Good luck Sam!
Best
Rob
Here is a web page devoted to Dr. Wheeler.
https://www.nprillinois.org/community-voices/2021-02-15/cv-sam-wheeler
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Gene C - 02-15-2022 10:26 AM
Unfortunately I missed Dr. Wheeler's presentation this past Friday.
Is it somewhere out there in cyber space where I can go and listen to it?
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - RJNorton - 02-15-2022 01:19 PM
Gene, I drew a blank in searching for the text (or audio) of Dr. Wheeler's presentation, but I did find a photo:
https://sq-al.facebook.com/LincolnLandCommunityCollege/photos/pcb.10158686114033861/10158686111638861/?type=3&theater
RE: Abraham and Thomas Lincoln - Lincoln Wonk - 03-10-2022 09:03 PM
(02-01-2022 01:55 PM)Steve Wrote: I came across this interesting article discussing Abraham Lincoln's relationship with his father which I thought some might find interesting:
https://www.sj-r.com/story/news/2022/01/31/talk-explore-abraham-lincolns-relationship-his-father/9268907002/
Thanks for posting this. It's really interesting