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+--- Thread: The Importance of Numbers (/thread-3783.html)
The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-21-2018 12:04 AM
At one of the most important battles of the American Civil War, the Union had on their payroll a force of 170,000 men. However, at the actual time of this battle, only 83,000 of these men were available for combat duty.
What was the name of this battle, as referred to by the respective Union and Confederate forces? And, what was the relationship of the outcome of this battle to the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation?
RE: The Importance of Numbers - RJNorton - 07-21-2018 04:01 AM
David, I shall guess Antietam because the outcome there led to President Lincoln issuing the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. Antietam is also known as the Battle of Sharpsburg, especially in the South.
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-21-2018 06:49 AM
(07-21-2018 04:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote: David, I shall guess Antietam because the outcome there led to President Lincoln issuing the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. Antietam is also known as the Battle of Sharpsburg, especially in the South.
You are right, Roger, of course. Do you happen to know the general rules for the naming of battles by both the Union forces and the Confederate forces for the same battles?
As to the source of my original question, the answer is Cordelia A.P. Harvey, the wife of the governor of Wisconsin, who, after her husband's death in 1862, persuaded Lincoln to endorse the establishment of a hospital in Madison for Wisconsin soldiers. The source reference that I used is the "Collected Words of Abraham Lincoln," compiled and edited by Don and Virginia Fehrenbacher, at pages 200-201.
At one point in their discussions, Lincoln spoke of the number of men available for the battle of Antietam:
"This war might have been finished at that time if every man had been in his place that was able to be there, but they were scattered hither and thither over the North, some on furloughs, and in one way and another, gone; so that out of 170,000 that the government was paying, only 83,000 could be got for action. The consequence, you know, proved nearly disastrous."
Also, during their conversation that day, Lincoln said to her: "I shall never be glad anymore. . . . the springs of life are wearing away."
RE: The Importance of Numbers - RJNorton - 07-21-2018 08:01 AM
(07-21-2018 06:49 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Do you happen to know the general rules for the naming of battles by both the Union forces and the Confederate forces for the same battles?
David, I do not know. I checked Wikipedia, and here is what it says:
"There is a disparity between the sides in naming some of the battles of the war. The Union forces frequently named battles for bodies of water or other natural features that were prominent on or near the battlefield; Confederates most often used the name of the nearest town or man-made landmark. Because of this, many battles actually have two widely used names. However, not all of the disparities are based on these naming conventions. Many modern accounts of Civil War battles use the names established by the North. However, for some battles, the Southern name has become the standard. The National Park Service occasionally uses the Southern names for their battlefield parks located in the South, such as Manassas and Shiloh. In general, naming conventions were determined by the victor of the battle."
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-21-2018 10:13 AM
(07-21-2018 08:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-21-2018 06:49 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Do you happen to know the general rules for the naming of battles by both the Union forces and the Confederate forces for the same battles?
David, I do not know. I checked Wikipedia, and here is what it says:
"There is a disparity between the sides in naming some of the battles of the war. The Union forces frequently named battles for bodies of water or other natural features that were prominent on or near the battlefield; Confederates most often used the name of the nearest town or man-made landmark. Because of this, many battles actually have two widely used names. However, not all of the disparities are based on these naming conventions. Many modern accounts of Civil War battles use the names established by the North. However, for some battles, the Southern name has become the standard. The National Park Service occasionally uses the Southern names for their battlefield parks located in the South, such as Manassas and Shiloh. In general, naming conventions were determined by the victor of the battle."
I believe that in the battle that we are talking about, Antietam Creek played a prominent role.
RE: The Importance of Numbers - LincolnMan - 07-22-2018 06:55 AM
Interesting discussion!
RE: The Importance of Numbers - L Verge - 07-22-2018 08:52 AM
(07-21-2018 08:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-21-2018 06:49 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Do you happen to know the general rules for the naming of battles by both the Union forces and the Confederate forces for the same battles?
David, I do not know. I checked Wikipedia, and here is what it says:
"There is a disparity between the sides in naming some of the battles of the war. The Union forces frequently named battles for bodies of water or other natural features that were prominent on or near the battlefield; Confederates most often used the name of the nearest town or man-made landmark. Because of this, many battles actually have two widely used names. However, not all of the disparities are based on these naming conventions. Many modern accounts of Civil War battles use the names established by the North. However, for some battles, the Southern name has become the standard. The National Park Service occasionally uses the Southern names for their battlefield parks located in the South, such as Manassas and Shiloh. In general, naming conventions were determined by the victor of the battle."
The Wikipedia explanation above used to be one of the first factoids in studying Civil War battles. I hope it hasn't changed.
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-23-2018 11:52 AM
(07-22-2018 06:55 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: Interesting discussion!
I thought that you and others might be interested in excerpts from Cornelia A.P. Harvey's recall of her discussions with President Lincoln. The source material is from Emanuel Hertz's book "Lincoln Talks" at pages 432-440.
I entered the White House, not with fear and trembling, but strong and self-possessed, fully conscious of the righteousness of my mission. I was received without delay. I had never seen Mr. Lincoln before. He alone, in a room, no elegance about him, no elegance in him. He raised his eyes, saying: "Mrs. Harvey?" In a moment he looked at me with a good deal of sad severity and said: "Madam, this matter of Northern hospitals has been talked of a great deal, and I thought it was settled, but it seems not. What have you got to say about it?"
"Only this, Mr. Lincoln, that many soldiers in our Western army on the Mississippi must have Northern air or die. There are thousands of graves all along our Southern rivers and in the swamps for which the Government is responsible, ignorantly, undoubtedly, but this ignorance must not continue. If you will permit these men to come North you will have ten men where you have one now."
"If your reasoning were correct, it would be a good argument. I don't see how sending one sick man North is going to give us in a year ten well ones."
"Mr. Lincoln, I intended to say, if you will let the sick come North, you will have ten well men in the army one year from today, where you have one well one now; whereas, if you do not let them come North, you will not have one from the ten, for they will all be dead."
"Yes, yes, I understand you; but if they are sent North, they will desert; where is the difference?"
"Dead men cannot fight," I answered, "and they may not desert."
Mr. Lincoln's eyes flashed as he replied: "A fine way, a fine way to decimate the army; we should never get a man of them back, not one, not one."
"Indeed, but you must pardon me when I say you are mistaken; you do not understand our people. You do not trust them sufficiently. They are as true and as loyal to the Government as you say. The loyalty is among the common soldiers and they have ever been the chief sufferers."
"This is your opinion," he said with a sort of a sneer. "Mrs. Harvey, how many men do you suppose the Government was paying in the Army of the Potomac at the battle of Antietam, and how many men do you suppose could be got for active service at that time? I wish you would give a guess."
[See my original post to this thread.]
"It was very sad but the delinquents were certainly not in Northern hospitals, neither were they deserters therefrom, for there are none. This is, therefore, no argument against them."
"Well, well, Mrs. Harvey, you go and see the Secretary of War and talk with him and hear what he has to say."
"May I return to you, Mr. Lincoln?" I asked.
"Certainly," he replied, and his voice was gentler than it had been before.
I left him for the War Department. I found written on the back of the letter these words: "Admit Mrs. Harvey at once; listen to what she says, she is a lady of intelligence and talks sense. A. Lincoln."
[Story to be continued in my next post.]
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-23-2018 01:34 PM
On my return to Mr. Lincoln, the messenger said I had better go directly into the President's room. I found my way to the back part of the room, and seated myself on a sofa in such a position that the desk was between Mr. Lincoln and me. I do not think that he knew I was there. The gentleman with him had given him a paper. [What followed was Lincoln's famous "old bulls good for nothing under heaven" story as justification for him to stop making brigadier generals.] [Y]ou should have seen Mr. Lincoln laugh -- he laughed all over, and fully enjoyed the point if no one else did. The story, if not elegant, was certainly apropos.
The gentleman soon departed, fully satisfied, I doubt not, for it was a saying at Washington when one met a petitioner: "Has Mr. Lincoln told you a story? If he has, it is all day with you. He never says 'yes' after a story."
I stepped forward as soon as the door closed. The President motioned to a chair near him. "Well, what did the Secretary of War say?"
I gave a full account of the interview, and then said: "I have nowhere else to go but to you." [Please note the prescient intelligence of Mrs. Harvey in asking of the President at their previous meeting: "May I return to you, Mr. Lincoln?"]
He replied earnestly: "Mr. Stanton knows very well that there is an acting surgeon-general here, and that Hammond will not be back these two months. I will see the Secretary of War myself, and you come in the morning."
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-23-2018 04:07 PM
I returned in the morning, full of hope, but no smile greeted me. The President was evidently annoyed by something, and waited for me to speak, which I did not do. I afterward learned his annoyance was caused by a woman pleading for the life of a son who was sentenced to be shot for desertion under very aggravating circumstances.
After a moment he said: "Well," with a peculiar contortion of face I never saw in anybody else, "have you nothing to say?"
"Nothing, Mr. President, until I hear your decision. You bade me come this morning; have you decided?"
"No, but I believe this idea of Northern hospitals is a great humbug, and I am tired of hearing about it." He spoke impatiently. I replied: "I regret to add a feather's weight to your already overwhelming care and responsibility. I would rather have stayed at home."
With a half smile, he said: "I wish you had."
I answered him as though he had not smiled. "Nothing would have given me greater pleasure; but a keen sense of duty to this Government, justice and mercy to its most loyal supporters, and regard for your honor and position made me come. The people cannot understand why their friends are left to die when with proper care they might live and do good service for their country. Mr. Lincoln, I believe you will be grateful for my coming. I do not come to plead for the lives of criminals, not for the lives of deserters, not for those who have been in the least disloyal. I come to plead for the lives of those who helped to place you where you are, because they trusted you. Men who have done all they could, and now when flesh, and nerve, and muscle are gone, still pray for your life and the life of this republic. They scarcely ask for that for which I plead--they expect to sacrifice their lives for their country."
While I was speaking, the expression of Mr. Lincoln's face had changed many times. He had never taken his eye from me. Now every muscle in his face seemed to contract and then suddenly expand. As he opened his mouth you could almost hear them snap as he said: "You assume to know more than I do."
"You must pardon me, Mr. President. I intend no disrespect, but it is because of this knowledge, because I do know what you do not know, that I come to you. If you knew what I do and had not ordered what I ask for, I should know that an appeal to you would be made in vain; but I believe the people have not trusted you for naught. The question only is whether you believe me or not. If you believe me you will give me hospitals; if not, well --"
With the same snapping of muscles he again said: "You assume to know more than surgeons do."
"Oh, no! Mr. Lincoln, I could not perform an amputation nearly as well as some of them do; indeed, I do not think I could do it at all. But this is true--I do not come here for your favor, I am not an aspirant for military honor. I have visited the hospitals, from early morning until late at night sometimes. I have visited the regimental and general hospitals on the Mississippi River from Quincy to Vicksburg, and I come to you from the cots of men who have died, who might have lived had you permitted. This is hard to say, but it is none the less true."
During the time that I had been speaking, Mr. Lincoln's brow had become very much contracted, and a severe scowl had settled over his whole face. He sharply asked how many men Wisconsin had in the field, that is, how many did she send? "About 50,000, I think, I do not know exactly."
"That means she has about 20,000 now." He looked at me, and said: "You need not look so sober, they are not all dead. I have a good mind to dismiss every man of them from the service and have no more trouble with them!"
The spell must be broken, so I said: "Do not speak so, Mr. President. Who will have so much reason to rejoice when the Government is restored, as it will be?"
"I know, I know," he said, placing a hand on each side [of his head] and bowing forward, "but the springs of life are wearing away." As I rose to take leave, I said: "Have you decided upon your answer to the object of my visit?" He replied: "No. Come tomorrow at twelve o'clock."
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-24-2018 01:48 PM
[The next day], the messenger said: "The President desires you to wait, for the Cabinet will soon adjourn." I waited and waited, and waited, three long hours and more, during which time the President sent out twice, saying the Cabinet would soon adjourn, that I was to wait. He came forward, rubbing his hands, and saying: "My dear madam, I am very sorry to have kept you waiting. We have but this moment adjourned."
I replied: "My waiting is no matter, but you must be very tired, and we will not talk tonight."
He said: "No. Sit down," and placed himself in a chair beside me, and said: "Mrs. Harvey, I only wish to tell you that an order equivalent to granting a hospital in your State has been issued nearly twenty-four hours."
I could not speak, I wept for joy. When I could speak I said: "God bless you. I thank you in the name of thousands who will bless you for the act." Then, remembering how many orders had been issued and countermanded, I said: "Do you mean really and truly, that we are going to have a hospital now?"
With a look full of humanity and benevolence, he said: "I do most certainly hope so." He said he wished me to come and see him in the morning and he would give me a copy of the order.
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-24-2018 07:12 PM
I was very ill and it was ten o'clock the next morning before I was able to send for a carriage to keep my appointment with the President. I did not expect an audience, but sent in my name and said I would call again. The messenger said: "Do not go, I think the President will see you now."
I had been but a moment among anxious, expectant, waiting faces, when the door opened and the voice said: "Mrs. Harvey, the President will see you." As I passed the crowd, one person said: "She has been here every day, and what is more, she is going to win."
I entered the presence of Mr. Lincoln for the last time. He smiled very graciously and drew a chair near him, and said: "Come here and sit down." He had a paper in his hand which he said was for me to keep. It was a copy of the order just issued. I thanked him, not only for the order but for the manner and spirit in which it had been given, then I said I must apologize for not having been there at nine o'clock as he desired me to be, but that I had been sick all night.
He looked up with: " Did joy make you sick?"
I said: "I don't know, very likely it was the relaxation of nerves after intense excitement."
Still looking at me he said: "I suppose you would have been mad if I had said no?"
I replied: "No, Mr. Lincoln, I should have been neither angry nor sick."
"What would you have done?" he asked curiously.
"I should have been here at nine o'clock, Mr. President."
"Well," he laughingly said, "I think I acted wisely, then," and suddenly looking up: "Don't you ever get angry?" he asked. "I know a little woman not very unlike you who gets mad sometimes."
I replied: "I never get angry when I have an object to gain of the importance of the one under consideration; to get angry, you know, would only weaken my cause, and destroy my influence."
"That is true, that is true," he said, decidedly. "This hospital I shall name for you."
I said: "No, but if you would not consider the request indelicate, I would like to have it named for Mr. Harvey."
"Yes, just as well, it shall be so understood if you prefer it. I honored your husband, and felt his loss, and now let us have this matter settled at once."
He took a card and wrote a few words upon it, requesting the Secretary of War to name the hospital "Harvey Hospital," in memory of my husband, and to gratify me he gave me the card, saying: "Now, you take that directly to the Secretary of War and have it understood." I thanked him, but did not take it to Mr. Stanton. The hospital was already named. I expressed a wish that he might never regret his present action, and said I was sorry to have taken so much of his time.
"Oh, no, you need not be," he said kindly.
"You will not wish to see me again, Mr. President."
"I didn't say that and shall not."
I said: "You have been very kind to me and I am grateful for it."
RE: The Importance of Numbers - David Lockmiller - 07-24-2018 11:25 PM
I made a discovery this evening. All the typing that I did [The source material is from Emanuel Hertz's book "Lincoln Talks" at pages 432-440.] turns out to be an abridgment of what Cornelia A.P. Harvey actually wrote.
For those interested, I highly recommend the original work which may be found here:
A Wisconsin Woman's Picture of President Lincoln
I would especially recommend reading first pages 233 - 236 (ending with the sentence on page 236 which reads: "This was the fate of thousands."). Cornelia A.P. Harvey's narrative of her meeting with President Abraham Lincoln begins on page 241 with the sentence which reads: "This depression in the South because of the utter failure of the government to provide a way by which the enfeebled soldiers might be restored to strength at last suggested the thought of going directly to the head, to the President."
I apologize to those that read my original posts and must read once again much of the same. But the previously omitted sections are well worth the additional effort. And, you must read the last paragraph in order!